Mr. Magazine

At the Hottest Magazine Launches awards held on Friday Dec. 9, 2016 at the Yale Club in New York City, Phyllis Hoffman DePiano was named the publisher of the year and Bake From Scratch was named the hottest magazine launch of the year. What follows is an interview I did with the hottest publisher of the year Phyllis Hoffman DePiano and Brian Hart Hoffman, the editor in chief of the hottest magazine launch of the year Bake From Scratch, back in October of 2015.  Enjoy the stroll along memory lane…

“…That tactile experience of turning pages and not being glued to a screen is important. I think in the beginning everyone thought digital was going to replace everything, but that quiet restorative experience of sitting down and reading a magazine and marking your favorite page; our readers really enjoy that.” Phyllis Hoffman DePiano

“… In a world where we are consuming digital so often in our day, such as in today’s business and the personal time we spend with our phones and tablets; I think print is still an escape that people love and enjoy. Looking at the indicators in the business and the marketplace, we haven’t seen any reason to abandon introducing new print titles. People love them and they’re selling really well and we’re going to keep delivering that to them based on demand.” Brian Hart Hoffman

Everything southern; Hoffman Media publications are the epitome of everything the south stands for: charm, grace, etiquette and delicious food; along with beautiful homes, craftwork and exquisite sewing. The magazines are very much like their owners, down-to-earth and extremely real.

Phyllis Hoffman DePiano and her two sons, Brian Hart Hoffman and Eric Hoffman, along with a team of creative talent, make up Hoffman Media, one of the few remaining family-owned and operated publishing houses around. Starting out very small many years ago, Phyllis took the company and grew it into the women’s interest empire that it is today. From niche titles with frequency to special bookazines that cover diverse topics, Hoffman Media has become a force to be reckoned with when it comes to southern women’s magazines.

And now with her two sons assisting her at the helm, Phyllis sees nothing but growth and success for the future. I spoke with Phyllis and Brian recently and we talked about that very subject: Hoffman Media’s past, present and future. The family connection of passion and dedication to the brand, its readers and the creative people they employ, was vibrant.

From Southern Homes to Bake From Scratch to Southern Cast Iron, the Hoffman’s know what it means to be southern and to give their audience the real deal; it’s a total immersion that is both natural and refreshingly authentic.

So sit back and relax, have a mint julep and enjoy the Mr. Magazine™ interview with Phyllis Hoffman DePiano and Brian Hart Hoffman, Hoffman Media.

But first, the sound-bites:

On the history of Hoffman Media and how it went from a small group of needlework and crafting magazines to the empire it is today: (Phyllis Hoffman DePiano) We were in the needlework and craft market for 10 years after we started our company in 1983. And then we sold our business to PJS Publications, which was a bigger business in the craft and needlework space. And after five years, all of us, PJS and all of the subsidiaries, were sold to PRIMEDIA and they went through a series of transitions and changes and moving people around, and they started consolidating their offices and wanted me to move to Denver. My boys were seniors in high school and we were embedded here in Birmingham, so I wasn’t open to a move. Steve Elzy asked me would I like to buy the original magazine back. So, in 1998 we bought our business back and started again as Hoffman Media. Fast-forwarding to where we are today, we have added titles in the cooking and entertaining space. In fact, we recently approved the magazine 10 Years with Paula Deen, and so our company took a big transition once we diversified some of the crafts into the cooking and entertaining space. And that has really been exciting for us.

On why Hoffman is immersed in the idea of producing collectible items with every issue they publish today: (Brian Hart Hoffman) One thing that we’ve never been apologetic about is that we are, what we would consider, a premium publisher. Our readers enjoy beautiful photography, very nice paper and they tell us that they want more of it. And for lack of a better word, it’s trendy right now to be using the wide format, larger publications and readers want the high-quality. They love cookbooks and they also love collector’s editions’ publications. We just really try to do our homework and respond to what consumers and the industry are asking for and are enjoying.

On whether she ever felt any competition with the other Birmingham-based publications: (Phyllis Hoffman DePiano) No, we did not. And Southern Living is what we’re talking about, of course, and what’s so funny is that all of the people who were in the top management years ago are all still good friends of mine today; it’s really a wonderful community here. We wrote our first southern magazine unapologetically geared toward women. And that is something that had not been done in the south because we had the beautiful Veranda, Southern Living and Southern Accents that were geared to the reader period, be it man or woman.

On being a woman at the helm of an operation like Hoffman Media and whether that may have made a difference in her relationship with the readers: (Phyllis Hoffman DePiano) I think so because I believe that they could relate to us as people who are also going home and setting our tables too. It’s funny, because I do speak at a lot of women’s events, and I think it is a good connection, I really do.

On whether Hoffman Media is trying to dominate the southern women’s market with all of its many titles: (Brian Hart Hoffman) I would say that we would absolutely like to dominate the southern publishing space, but by doing it in a very disciplined manner, where our editorial is still very niche-focused. Southern foods, southern lifestyles, southern personalities and southern décor; these are all things that are in our backyard here in the south and we have relationships with so many people in the industry, with home interior design and shops that own restaurants and food brands that make the south just such a wonderful place to be.

On why in this digital age, Hoffman Media is bringing so many print titles to the marketplace: (Brian Hart Hoffman)When I spoke at the ACT 5 conference last year, I referenced this in my presentation; we’ve heard so many people in the last 8 to 10 years telling us that print is dying and it’s all going digital, and all of these alerts and alarms about what’s going to ultimately happen, but we thoroughly see and believe that there’s an audience for multiple forms of media. You have to have the digital components and the social media presence, but people still love holding that high-quality publication in their hands. They take it to the kitchen with them; they curl up on the sofa and read it like a book.

On a new sewing magazine Hoffman Media is introducing: (Phyllis Hoffman DePiano) The reason that we’re bringing this back is all of the magazines in that space have been folded. They have fallen into the hands of companies that are digital-only and so the print magazines have gone away. In tune with those audiences, people want print magazines in that sewing space because of the same reason they want the pictures, to put them on their shelves in their sewing rooms. They want to have the patterns so they can reproduce what is going on. Children’s sewing right now is one of the hottest markets that there is and women today who are sewing still love the visual.

On any major stumbling block she’s had to face and how she overcame it: (Phyllis Hoffman DePiano) Probably in our current days, such as last year with the folding of Source Interlink and the effect it had on the newsstands. That was a huge setback for us, in terms of our distributions; we had to work very, very diligently to overcome that and we did.

On what has been the highlight of Brian’s career so far since joining his mom at Hoffman Media: (Brian Hart Hoffman) In the last eight years, the highlight of learning from mom, the CEO, and the professional development that I’ve been able to experience and tapping into my creative brain that I wasn’t fully aware of, the brainpower and the creative instincts that I had to lead an editorial division of a publishing company; every day is the highlight. We work with such talented people who make the creative process that much more fun. And I get to see my mom and brother, so that’s a pretty good gig.

On anything else they’d like to add: (Phyllis Hoffman DePiano) In our company, like Brian said, we’re committed to growing this company by keeping our eyes and ears opened to what is going on in the market and what the trends and demands are, and through consultants a well. We’re very cautious in that we don’t just completely jump in without testing markets and listening to our advertisers. From that standpoint, that’s why a lot of what we do is not assuming that we have all the answers; we’re very in tune with the people in our industry and the trends that they’re seeing and the wants and needs of the reader.

On anything else they’d like to add: (Brian Hart Hoffman) I think that I would reiterate Mom’s same sentiment; the DNA of our company is to really just look for voids in the marketplace and opportunities for us to be very niched in our approach to magazine publishing, and again, delivering products that are high-quality into a marketplace of people who are seeking out content in that particular genre of titles. We never wanted to be a mass-reach, broad reader service. We’re not trying to take on the multimillion circulation magazines. We’re trying to be the best Hoffman Media we can be.

On what keeps them up at night: (Phyllis Hoffman DePiano) For me, it’s the self-imposed understanding that we’re responsible for our employees, these people who have committed their lives and their professional careers to us. Making sure that we’re making prudent decisions about our business and growth, giving them opportunities and looking down the road, because to me, as I said when I spoke at one of the ACT conferences, our assets walk in and out of our door between 8-5, or whenever they go home, and making sure they have opportunities to be a part of the growth and to have a good foundation is vital.

On what keeps them up at night: (Brian Hart Hoffman) For me personally, new ideas and creativity keep me up at night. I believe I do some of my best thinking when I wake up at 2:00 a.m. with a good idea that I need to jot down or if I’m writing an article, because it comes to me in the night sometimes. I would say that creativity keeps me up at night.

And now the lightly edited transcript of the Mr. Magazine™ conversation with Phyllis Hoffman DePiano and Brian Hart Hoffman, Hoffman Media:

Samir Husni: You’ve been in the publishing business for many years now and a lot has changed. Today, when someone hears the name Hoffman Media, people stop and they listen. Can you take me through that progression from that small group of craft and needlework magazines of yesterday to the “empire” Hoffman Media is today?

Phyllis Hoffman DePiano: Yes, I can. I’ll try to be brief. We were in the needlework and craft market for 10 years after we started our company in 1983. And then we sold our business to PJS Publications, which was a bigger business in the craft and needlework space. That was also a folio company of John Suhler & Associates.

And after five years, all of us, PJS and all of the subsidiaries, were sold to PRIMEDIA and they went through a series of transitions and changes and moving people around, and they started consolidating their offices and wanted me to move to Denver. My boys were seniors in high school and we were embedded here in Birmingham, so I wasn’t open to a move.

Steve Elzy asked me would I like to buy the original magazine back. At the time that I was with them, we had eight magazines, I think it was; we’d started McCall’s Quilting and just a whole McCall’s needlework franchise. And that stayed with them because they were buying up some other quilting titles as well.

So, in 1998 we bought our business back and started again as Hoffman Media. From there we still had a presence in the needlework and craft industry, but we realized that there was a southern market out there for women that was basically untapped, specifically written for women. And so we launched Southern Lady and from that we have launched several other magazines that are now in our portfolio of magazines.

Fast-forwarding to where we are today, we have added titles in the cooking and entertaining space. In fact, we recently approved the magazine 10 Years with Paula Deen, and so our company took a big transition once we diversified some of the crafts into the cooking and entertaining space. And that has really been exciting for us.

Our readers are people who love to do things with their hands, whether it’s cooking or entertaining, flower-showing, you name it; they’re very hands-on, can-do people. They also love to eat out, so restaurants have a great appeal to our readers too and we do a lot in the food space. And Brian can speak to that, because that’s really where all of these meal publications have come in.

Samir Husni: Brian, from the days of Southern Lady and even Cooking with Paula Deen, which were all good magazines, but didn’t necessarily have that collectible feel as the new magazines you’re putting out today do, such as Southern Home or Southern Cast Iron. Why the change in not only the specialization, but in the quality of the paper and the sizes of the magazines; why are you so immersed in producing collectible items with every issue now?

Brian Hart Hoffman: One thing that we’ve never been apologetic about is that we are, what we would consider, a premium publisher. Our readers enjoy beautiful photography, very nice paper and they tell us that they want more of it. And for lack of a better word, it’s trendy right now to be using the wide format, larger publications and readers want the high-quality. They love cookbooks and they also love collector’s editions’ publications.

We just really try to do our homework and listen to what the industry is asking for and what consumers are enjoying. That higher price point, that premium bookazine product is something that our readers and consumers are really embracing right now.

Phyllis Hoffman DePiano: Also, a lot of our magazines are collector’s items. With Southern Lady, we have probably half of our readership that is original and they collect every issue. We treat each magazine as if it were going to be collected because we put things in there specifically that are timeless. We’re trendy, but for example, if we’re doing a feature on Thanksgiving, our recipes and all of the ideas that we have, we try to make them timeless so that these magazines do have value for a long time.

So, the new ones are very exciting to us because they are in the wide format and they do have the matte finish paper which is something people love. Some of our magazines are still on gloss, because that audience likes the glossy, shiny, slick pages. We’re very choosy with our readers because at the end of the day your product has to please your readers and the perceived value a lot of times is in the materials that we use.

It’s funny to me in publishing a magazine on matte finish it’s perceived to be more expensive, more valuable and luxurious than one on a pretty gloss paper. And we’ve seen that coming I don’t know how many times.

Samir Husni: In the beginning when people looked at some of your titles and compared them to the other southern magazines that are based and published in Birmingham, many said yes, they’ll probably be here for a few years, then they’ll be gone. Now, you are a force to be reckoned with; did you ever feel that you were in any competition with your next door neighbors?

Phyllis Hoffman DePiano: No, we did not. And Southern Living is what we’re talking about, of course, and what’s so funny is that all of the people who were in the top management years ago are all still good friends of mine today; it’s really a wonderful community here.

We wrote our first southern magazine unapologetically geared toward women. And that is something that had not been done in the south because we had the beautiful Veranda, Southern Living and Southern Accents that were geared to the reader period, be it man or woman. In fact, it’s funny we have Victoria now, because when Hearst started Victoria magazine years ago, we at Hoffman Media kept saying, why would someone do a magazine for southern women because we have beautiful homes and talented entrepreneurs and no one is really celebrating them? And one of our art directors looked at me, it was so funny, he asked me, why do you think as a publishing company we have to just stick to needlework? And that was kind of a cold, sobering, ice-in-the-face feeling and I thought, you know, he’s right.

And that’s when we did the prototype for Southern Lady, centering on the traditions of the south and the home and places women love to visit. But we did it from a woman’s perspective, written by women, for women. So, it was a different slant. It was funny because when I had the concept; people at Southern Living wanted to hear my presentation and said they’d love to give me their opinion. And I met with them, and when I think about that now, I realize how huge that was. (Laughs) And they all said, oh, my wife would love this magazine.

We knew that we’d never be the size of a machine like Southern Living, but we knew that we had a market if their wives would love the magazine, many women would. So, we did the prototype and put it out there. And we discovered that it had found a place where it was about women and entrepreneur issues, women who had formed businesses and were doing great things in their communities.

So, yes, they are the big southern giant, but we found that we don’t have to have millions of subscribers to be successful. And we have good circulations, large circulations, but we also have targeted audiences and that makes a difference. We’re not marketing to the masses.

It’s really been an amazing ride. And Tea Time, which is all about afternoon tea, is the only magazine in that market space. And we’ve enjoyed being in that niche market.

One by one, Taste of the South, then Cooking with Paula Deen, and Paula Deen is probably the one that put us on the map, where people actually said, oh, that Hoffman Media because it went huge right alongside Rachael Ray, in fact they launched two weeks apart, and neither one knew the other was doing a magazine, so that was kind of amazing. But it was one of the first celebrity magazines and that kind of put us on the map, so to speak. And from there and the titles that we see today, Taste of the South has grown amazingly.

The south is an exciting place and that’s where we and Brian step in to tell people that we’re really in tune with what’s going on throughout the south, be it a small tea room or a huge, gorgeous restaurant or food festivals and I think that’s what separates us. We’re small enough to be nimble. We can move quickly to cover something that’s important and that I think separates us. We’re very involved, from the top down, with our advertisers and our readers. I’m not saying they’re not, don’t misunderstand me, but when you have the readerships that they do, millions of people, that’s a great thing. But we find that the intimacy in the markets that we’re in has great appeal.

Samir Husni: Being a woman at the helm of this operation, like the founder of Veranda; do you think that created or made a difference in your relationship with the southern woman?

Phyllis Hoffman DePiano: I think so because I believe that they could relate to us as people who are also going home and setting our tables too. It’s funny, because I do speak at a lot of women’s events, and I think it is a good connection, I really do. Not so much now as it used to be because as in our foods category, we’ve got a great male editor, Josh Miller… He’s wonderful. Of course, Brian is the editor of Bake From Scratch.

Samir Husni: When is Bake From Scratch going to be on the newsstands?

Phyllis Hoffman DePiano: It won’t be on sale until October. But yes, it was a gutsy move to be honest with you, for a woman to even own a publishing company; to start up a small company amidst the big giants. But we trolled at the more intimate spaces, shops, designers and I think that people could relate to us, I really do, because of that.

Samir Husni: Last time I visited with you both, you were in small, crammed offices where everybody could see everybody. I don’t know how big the offices are now, but…

Phyllis Hoffman DePiano: Much bigger. (Laughs)

Samir Husni: (Laughs too) But as you turn that engine where you are producing one title after another, one SIP after another, one bookazine after another; are you planning to dominate this market, in terms of cooking and decorating? With your latest magazine, Southern Home, and with the specialty bookazines, whether they’re for baking or Christmas Baking, or with Celebrate and Enjoy, just all of these titles; from an editorial point of view, are you trying to cast a huge net over the southern ocean?

Brian Hart Hoffman: I would say that we would absolutely like to dominate the southern publishing space, but by doing it in a very disciplined manner, where our editorial is still very niche-focused. Southern foods, southern lifestyles, southern personalities and southern décor; these are all things that are in our backyard here in the south and we have relationships with so many people in the industry, with home interior design and shops that own restaurants and food brands that make the south just such a wonderful place to be.

We absolutely want to be partners with them and dominate the southern publishing space. We are an authority; we work with experts and our publications are beautiful and respected by readers and continue to grow.

Phyllis Hoffman DePiano: One thing that I think that sets us apart from other magazines and it’s an intentional thing that we do, is our recipes have to be successful in a home kitchen. The ingredients need to be common ingredients that you can find in the grocery stores and I think that’s part of why people love our magazines. When I say common, I don’t mean that in a derogatory way; it’s a celebration of traditional southern foods, with maybe a little twist. But we make an intentional effort that any person in a kitchen can follow our instructions and they’re easy to accomplish recipes. That’s where you have success with readers; when they can relate and when what you publish is relevant.

Samir Husni: Brian, didn’t anyone tell you or remind you that we live in a digital age; why are you bringing all of these print titles to the marketplace?

Brian Hart Hoffman: When I spoke at the ACT 5 conference last year, I referenced this in my presentation; we’ve heard so many people in the last 8 to 10 years telling us that print is dying and it’s all going digital, and all of these alerts and alarms about what’s going to ultimately happen, but we thoroughly see and believe that there’s an audience for multiple forms of media. You have to have the digital components and the social media presence, but people still love holding that high-quality publication in their hands. They take it to the kitchen with them; they curl up on the sofa and read it like a book.

I think in a world where we are consuming digital so often in our day, such as in today’s business and the personal time we spend with our phones and tablets; I think print is still an escape that people love and enjoy. Looking at the indicators in the business and the marketplace, we haven’t seen any reason to abandon introducing new print titles. People love them and they’re selling really well and we’re going to keep delivering that to them based on demand.

Phyllis Hoffman DePiano: We have our digital platforms as well and I think they’re two different leaders, with different audience members. But that tactile experience of turning pages and not being glued to a screen is important. I think in the beginning everyone thought digital was going to replace everything, but that quiet restorative experience of sitting down and reading a magazine and marking your favorite page; our readers really enjoy that.

Samir Husni: Phyllis, following your Facebook page, I’ve noticed that you’re going back to your roots and introducing a new craft magazine.

Phyllis Hoffman DePiano: It’s going to be sewing and the reason that we’re bringing this back is all of the magazines in that space have been folded. They have fallen into the hands of companies that are digital-only and so the print magazines have gone away. In tune with those audiences, people want print magazines in that sewing space because of the same reason they want the pictures, to put them on their shelves in their sewing rooms. They want to have the patterns so they can reproduce what is going on. Children’s sewing right now is one of the hottest markets that there is and women today who are sewing still love the visual. A lot of these women are sewing on $8,000 to $10,000 sewing machines. It’s not a saving-money thing like it used to be years ago. It is an art form for creating beautiful sewn garments and it’s just like painting a portrait to an artist.

So, that’s the market we’re in and it’s a gutsy move; it’s $75 per year. It’s an expensive magazine to produce, but in the market space that these readers are in, it’s not out of line at $18.75 an issue. That’s for the pattern, instructions and there’s also a lot of digital, there’s downloadable designs, downloadable patterns and so it’s a combination of print and digital in one subscription.

Samir Husni: When is the first issue of Classic Sewing coming out?

Phyllis Hoffman DePiano: In December.

Samir Husni: From hearing the two of you talk, people might think your journey has been a path through a rose garden; a highway to magazine heaven. What has been one of the major stumbling blocks you’ve had to face and how did you overcome it?

Phyllis Hoffman DePiano: Probably in our current days, such as last year with the folding of Source Interlink and the effect it had on the newsstands. That was a huge setback for us, in terms of our distributions; we had to work very, very diligently to overcome that and we did.

As far as a major stumbling block, early on in our career when (the national distributor) Select Magazines bellied up, we had just begun putting our magazines on the newsstands and they filed bankruptcy and we had to recover from that.

As with all businesses, I think we have ebbed and flowed with what’s going on with the economy. I can recall two events when we had Desert Storm, that was the first time our country had been at war in modern times; we saw a drying up of people, they were holding on to their incomes, advertisers weren’t advertising, nobody knew what was going to happen. It was a scary time. And we had to weather that slump.

And after 9/11, it was the same thing, the fear in our country and what everyone was going to do. Our readers stayed with us; we weathered the ups and downs of newsstand and advertising and that was a difficult time.

The economics and the economy of newsstand; just like everybody else, those things have been tough. And things that are out of your control, such as paying for postage, you can’t control that. It’s day-to-day things like that. Even Katrina; when it blew away the whole coast, it was the same thing. Our whole southern district was affected. If you’re in the magazine world, you just have to ebb and flow with the national concerns.

Samir Husni: Brian, if you were to select a pivotal moment since you joined the company with your mom, what has been the highlight of your experience so far?

Brian Hart Hoffman: One thing that I always say is I never really knew that I had a dream to be in magazine publishing because my first career in the airline industry was such a big part of my life and my dreams as a child, but I think that I took it for granted growing up in a household where this passion was also in my life, whether I knew it or not.

And in the last eight years, the highlight of learning from Mom, the CEO, and the professional development that I’ve been able to experience and tapping into my creative brain that I wasn’t fully aware of, the brainpower and the creative instincts that I had to lead an editorial division of a publishing company; every day is the highlight. We work with such talented people who make the creative process that much more fun. And I get to see my mom and brother, so that’s a pretty good gig.

Phyllis Hoffman De Piano: It’s a great gig. Eric and Brian were promoted to co-president this year. Eric is the president, chief operating officer and Brian is the president, chief creative officer and I’m the chairman of the board now, because they have moved into areas of responsibilities that I have pushed down to them. As the evolution of a legacy business continues, that’s what has to take place as time moves on, so that was a big event too in their lives. It certainly was in mine because I realized the two kids that I raised are now the presidents of the company I started when they were two-years-old.

Samir Husni: Is there anything either of you would like to add?

Phyllis Hoffman De Piano: In our company, like Brian said, we’re committed to growing this company by keeping our eyes and ears opened to what is going on in the market and what the trends and demands are, and through consultants a well. We’re very cautious in that we don’t just completely jump in without testing markets and listening to our advertisers. From that standpoint, that’s why a lot of what we do is not assuming that we have all the answers; we’re very in tune with the people in our industry and the trends that they’re seeing and the wants and needs of the reader. And when it comes to our young people; they’re retreating more back to their homes; they’re entertaining at home and we become a resource for them and that’s something that we always want to do. When you pay for one of our magazines, you get more than your money’s worth.

Brian Hart Hoffman: I think that I would reiterate Mom’s same sentiment; the DNA of our company is to really just look for voids in the marketplace and opportunities for us to be very niched in our approach to magazine publishing, and again, delivering products that are high-quality into a marketplace of people who are seeking out content in that particular genre of titles. We never wanted to be a mass-reach, broad reader service. We’re not trying to take on the multimillion circulation magazines. We’re trying to be the best Hoffman Media we can be. And I think that’s what guides us every day; we’re not always looking outside the walls of other publishers and asking how we can beat them; we’re looking inside and for opportunities to be the best that we can be. That drives our day-to-day creative engine, and why we put the passion, energy and dedication into each and every one of our publications.

Samir Husni: My typical last question, what keeps you up at night?

Phyllis Hoffman DePiano: For me, it’s the self-imposed understanding that we’re responsible for our employees, these people who have committed their lives and their professional careers to us. Making sure that we’re making prudent decisions about our business and growth, giving them opportunities and looking down the road, because to me, as I said when I spoke at one of the ACT conferences, our assets walk in and out of our door between 8-5, or whenever they go home, and making sure they have opportunities to be a part of the growth and to have a good foundation is vital.

With Eric and Brian, it’s rewarding having your sons onboard, because before I was kind of a solo leader. Now, having Eric and Brian as a team, and each one of us has a different personality and different strengths and talents; it’s good to have that team now working and committed to growing the business so that it does have a great future, for not only us as a family, but our employees that work here as well.

Brian Hart Hoffman: The same thing really. As business owners, that’s something that everyone who owns a business worries about because that’s what drives us every day.

But for me personally, new ideas and creativity keep me up at night. I believe I do some of my best thinking when I wake up at 2:00 a.m. with a good idea that I need to jot down or if I’m writing an article, because it comes to me in the night sometimes. I would say that creativity keeps me up at night.

Samir Husni: Thank you both.