Mr. Magazine

“I’m a great fan of digital and I’m a big supporter. Us Weekly has a very sizeable print footprint with just under two million copies, 1,968,000 per week is our most recent AAM (Alliance For Audited Media) statement for the six months ending December 2017, so of course, we’re big believers in print. And I am incredulous with the number of conversations that I have with agencies and clients in acknowledging that their own research with media-mix modeling, etc. will point to a strong ROI, but it’s not in fashion, so the industry is often plagued with people who are concerned for their jobs because they’re not forward-thinking enough.” Vicci Rose…

“I do feel we just have to temper the industry’s excitement. And there are certain advertisers that rushed into the digital world, and so because we could measure it, thought that it would have the measurement that they wanted. But if we continue to see that click-through rates are a fraction of a percent, there isn’t an advertiser out there that could believe that is a success metric, where at the same time any of the more traditional quantitative research in print, Starch for example, shows tremendous awareness, tremendous activity levels, as a result of engaging with the ads. And that continues, even in the face of such tremendous, widespread access to digital.” Vicci Rose…

A lot can happen in a week, indeed. What former Us Weekly owner, Jann Wenner, said to Vicci Rose years ago, when describing the difference between Us Weekly and its prime competitor at the time, still remains valid to the VP/CRO today: you know, a lot can happen in a week. Since before the Internet and during Jann Wenner’s ownership of the magazine, Vicci Rose has been publisher of Us Weekly. And when it comes to celebrities and entertainment, her knowledge is vast and her opinion strong on both the category and the frequency of her brand: “The fact remains, whether it’s Us Weekly or some of our key competitors, we are able to provide a tremendous amount of paid circulated copies every single week.”

And indeed she is right, with her quoted amount of paid copies sold per week: just under two million copies, and her intense belief that all that is needed in the world of advertisement and magazines is for the two to come to an understanding about the continued value of print and the continued synchronization of digital with the legacy platform. It’s really as simple as that and as complex, as some advertisers are still seeking that pot of gold at the end of the digital rainbow. But being Print Proud Digital Smart has never been more important to her and her brand.

I spoke with Vicci recently and we talked about all of the above, and about the transition of ownership of the brand to American Media, Inc., and how her role as publisher, now chief revenue officer, has evolved over her many years in the business. While the core objective has remained the same, forming those strong bonds with agencies and clients, Vicci said today her job is always effected by the rapid changes within the industry. But if anybody can roll with the punches, it’s Vicci Rose. She is strong, dedicated and committed 100 percent to the continued success of Us Weekly.

So, I hope that you enjoy this delightful conversation with an equally delightful woman who believes that as long as Us Weekly remains current and relevant in the world of celebrities and entertainment, the brand’s present and future success is safe, the Mr. Magazine™ interview with Vicci Rose, VP/chief revenue officer, Us Weekly.

But first the sound-bites:

On how her role as chief revenue officer, publisher, has changed since the dawn of the digital age: Some of the evolution in my role is imposed by the rapid change in the industry. And another very important part of it is Us being more introspective to determine how we can keep pace with the rapidly changing world first and foremost, if we are truthfully driven by our audiences, which in turn then we promote and engage with our advertisers. So, I think in the initial stages of the role of publisher, and it was very much publisher, focused on the audience, the circulation, the advertisers’ interest in that audience to affect their objectives and strategies, etc. That’s always at the heart of what we do.

On why she thinks advertisers are so enamored by digital advertising in light of recent media reports on Bots and fake ads: I do feel we just have to temper the industry’s excitement. And there are certain advertisers that rushed into the digital world, and so because we could measure it, thought that it would have the measurement that they wanted. But if we continue to see that click-through rates are a fraction of a percent, there isn’t an advertiser out there that could believe that is a success metric, where at the same time any of the more traditional quantitative research in print, Starch for example, shows tremendous awareness, tremendous activity levels, as a result of engaging with the ads. And that continues, even in the face of such tremendous, widespread access to digital.

On finding new ways or creating new ways to engage with the advertisers and serve the customers and readers at the same time: It began first with positioning ads in relevant editorial. And that evolution of the positioning of the ads in relevant editorial became enhanced promotional pages and what we used to call advertorial pages. And today it’s a much more sophisticated translation of that original objective, which is branded and custom content as well as sponsored content. We are pursuing all of the avenues to allow our clients a better connection, a stronger connection, which includes social media components, but the translation of that has been a particularly productive avenue for Us Weekly over the years.

On her response when people say the entire celebrity genre and the weekly genre has no future in print: I totally disagree. The fact remains, whether it’s Us Weekly or some of our key competitors, we are able to provide a tremendous amount of paid circulated copies every single week. You just have to look at Us Weekly and People magazine. Again, the landscape has changed, where today not as much of our sales are at retail as they were before, but our average customer is paying roughly $70, that’s the actual price paid, for our subscription; for 52 weeks a year. And we’re able to sustain the circulation and in fact, the advertising, for 52 copies per year. And almost all of our weekly competitors in the entertainment and celebrity space are able to do that as well.

On why she feels there are less success stories, such as Us Weekly’s, in the media today and more doom and gloom magazine predictions: The proliferation of new products, new digital products, new software; the average CMO (chief marketing officer) today would be bombarded by not just six or seven entertainment magazines and 10 fashion and beauty magazines and the Seven Sisters. I mean, they are bombarded with thousands of alternatives today. So, I think in many cases, the decisions and the interaction with the publishing community has really been largely deferred to the advertising agencies. And they too have taken on such tremendous responsibility, as well as seeking new revenue streams.

On the analogy that digital was the seductive mistress when it burst upon the scene and print was always the steadfast spouse: (Laughs) Well, it’s interesting, there’s no question that digital, when it’s done right and with integrity…I always think, how did we end up here? The publishers have always had these tremendously solid relationships with our agencies and with our clients. And so, how did we lose so badly? You’re anecdote here is a perfect one for this because here we were, loyal, supportive; all of the editorial mentions that the editor is independent of commercial investment. And the support we’ve given over the years, yet, there was this shiny new object, the one that was thought to be the more exciting of the two.

On what someone would find her doing if they showed up unexpectedly one evening at her home: If you came to my house, you would probably find me somehow connected with my work. While I’m probably not proud to say it, other than my family and my twins, who are turning 21 soon, I am really totally immersed in what I do. But luckily that immersion does include a very significant and substantial immersion in pop culture and entertainment. I see a tremendous amount of movies; I watch a tremendous amount of television across the full spectrum: broadcast, cable, streaming.

On what she would have tattooed upon her brain that would be there forever and no one could ever forget about her: I think I’d like to have people think of me as their partner, a real consultative, professional who is dedicated and enthusiastic about what I do 12 and 14 hours per day. And that they can trust me to be a really committed and productive partner. I think that’s true with my dedication and my commitment in everything I do. I’d like that to be my legacy.

On what keeps her up at night: Two things, I have to be honest. One is, as we said earlier, how do we get the market to see the true value of print, which is there for them to see, it’s just a question of breaking through. And the other side of the equation, which is something that does plague all of us in the business, not only on the print side but also on the pure play digital, how do we accelerate the adoption of audiences to pay for the content they are consuming? Some are doing it well, others are doing it even more brilliantly, but as an industry we have not yet after 20 years or more, we have not as an industry solved this challenge.

And now the lightly edited transcript of the Mr. Magazine™ interview with Vicci Rose, VP/chief revenue officer, Us Weekly.

Samir Husni: You’ve seen it all in this industry. As a brand that has its cornerstone in print as Us Weekly does, how would you describe the change in your role as a chief revenue officer, as a publisher, from the dawn of the digital age until now?

Vicci Rose: Some of the evolution in my role is imposed by the rapid change in the industry. And another very important part of it is Us being more introspective to determine how we can keep pace with the rapidly changing world first and foremost, if we are truthfully driven by our audiences, which in turn then we promote and engage with our advertisers. So, I think in the initial stages of the role of publisher, and it was very much publisher, focused on the audience, the circulation, the advertisers’ interest in that audience to affect their objectives and strategies, etc. That’s always at the heart of what we do.

I can honestly say today that core objective is at the heart of the role of chief revenue officer. I do feel there is a difference in perspective, however, because growing up in our industry and our business, making the transition from the media side, media planning, at Benton & Bowles, where I worked with leading advertisers like Procter & Gamble, at the time it was called General Foods, the role of ad sales and publisher or management was very much about connecting the advertiser to the audience, in a very pure connection in that way.

Over the last decade or so more, it’s really about that consultative sales part of that equation. We could be far more creative over the last decade or two than ever before. We were engaged in a much more significant relationship, in terms of having a better understanding of what that client wanted to achieve. And through that process we built more comprehensive programs, again, using the media or the various components of our brand.

Us Weekly, as an example, went into the mobile space back in 2002 because it really didn’t require a significant investment, and I at the time as publisher had to determine how much of our resources could go into a forward-thinking medium. So, as I sit here today as chief revenue officer, that core objective is at the heart of what I do, but I do have to be so much more aware of a much broader platform. I have to be knowledgeable with not just my audience and how they engage, but where they engage. And where, as you just said, will we be engaging them in the next week or in the next month? (Laughs)

And I would honestly say tactically, we used to look at three and five-year plans regularly; today I hardly ever look at a five-year plan because I have to be really concerned with the three-month plan and the six-month plan and the 12-month plan. My role is that much more urgent and immediate, in terms of everything we do. We have to be far more concerned with the actual performance metric, that has been a very dramatic change in our responsibility to our clients.

And we’re under tremendous pressure to prove daily the power of print and the importance of print. In fact, I have a presentation coming up to one of the major agencies and one of the top ten clients in the industry to prove the power of print using many of the components from the very productive presentation that the MPA has designed, that magazines tell and sell. And then we adopt some of that information and translate it for our clients and how their product categories and their particular products have actually seen increases in consumption in magazine audiences.

My responsibility today is not just to connect clients and audiences, but really to prove that there is a powerful and productive connection and ultimately to help set up the ROI that they will achieve. In a long-winded way, my role has changed a lot, but there are still some core things that drive me every day in my role.

Samir Husni: Recently, I interviewed the president of Meredith Magazines, Doug Olson, and he was amazed and surprised that with all the data and with everything that print can offer, and with the stories that have been in the news lately about fake ads and all the Bots looking at the digital ads, he was amazed that some advertisers still have this strong belief in digital? Do you think the industry will ever overcome that newness of digital and see the return of the tangible ROI in the magazine business?

Vicci Rose: I’m a great fan of digital and I’m a big supporter. Us Weekly has a very sizeable print footprint with just under two million copies, 1,968,000 per week is our most recent AAM (Alliance For Audited Media) statement for the six months ending December 2017, so of course, we’re big believers in print. And I am incredulous with the number of conversations that I have with agencies and clients in acknowledging that their own research with media-mix modeling, etc. will point to a strong ROI, but it’s not in fashion, so the industry is often plagued with people who are concerned for their jobs because they’re not forward-thinking enough.

So, I would agree with Mr. Olson, yes. I am constantly surprised, especially in light of the fact that print for most of our clients works and has been proven to work. But at the same time I do feel that the digital component, and when I say digital, I mean the whole spectrum of digital, digital video, social media, mobile; all of those platforms add such a tremendous conduit to audiences, both our existing audiences, but more importantly to new audiences.

I do feel we just have to temper the industry’s excitement. And there are certain advertisers that rushed into the digital world, and so because we could measure it, thought that it would have the measurement that they wanted. But if we continue to see that click-through rates are a fraction of a percent, there isn’t an advertiser out there that could believe that is a success metric, where at the same time any of the more traditional quantitative research in print, Starch for example, shows tremendous awareness, tremendous activity levels, as a result of engaging with the ads. And that continues, even in the face of such tremendous, widespread access to digital.

So, I would agree with him. I do feel though that in the last year, year and a half, since many of our industry leaders on the client side are expressing concern again, not a wholesale withdrawal, but a concern. I do think there is a tempering of that willingness to try anything new at all costs and take on tremendous risk. And I have seen, in fact, in our presentation, that there are about 30 advertisers out there that have actually pulled away from print, then came back to print in a significant way and are actually growing their print. And there are many new research tools that will help us. In fact, thinking about Meredith, they were among the first companies to go into the Nielsen Catalina study and be able to, through some complexity, but be able to show their advertisers that there is significant ROI in print-based programs.

Samir Husni: You’ve been very creative in dealing with your clients and with advertisers. Can you talk a little bit about the new ways of getting revenue and advertising, rather than the traditional: we’ll sell you a page here or we’ll send you something on digital? What are you doing in terms of finding new ways or creating new ways to engage with the advertisers and to serve your customers and readers at the same time?

Vicci Rose: We actually started this back, I would probably say, at Mademoiselle magazine when there was first this opportunity to better engage our audience with some creative projects. And then pulling together the marketing team and really working with the clients to try to recognize more of the context and the relevance of the messaging. At first it began clearly with just positioning. It wasn’t just, let’s call it the Campbell’s Soup position that it used to be called in the women’s service area, the left-hand page opening the main editorial well and it didn’t really matter what the context of that adjacency was.

So, it began first with positioning ads in relevant editorial. And that evolution of the positioning of the ads in relevant editorial became enhanced promotional pages and what we used to call advertorial pages. And today it’s a much more sophisticated translation of that original objective, which is branded and custom content as well as sponsored content. We are pursuing all of the avenues to allow our clients a better connection, a stronger connection, which includes social media components, but the translation of that has been a particularly productive avenue for Us Weekly over the years.

And I think the reason why we’ve been able to see this as a very particularly productive channel for us, meaning the branded or custom content channel, is because we are able to work with the clients, really better understand what their objectives are. At times, because we’re dealing with celebrity and entertainment, we have to remind the client of what those objectives are and make sure that they adhere to what they originally thought was the objective and not get all caught up in the excitement of working with entertainment and celebrity.

But again, the importance of that I think has never been clearer than it is today with the new audiences. As you mentioned, that younger customer coming into media with very different expectations, with a very different landscape, and a very different appraisal of advertising and how they react to advertising. How they feel about companies and their promise, typically made in a classic ad.

So, we have this fantastic opportunity to work with our clients to really understand where their objectives converge with the interest of an audience. It takes it to a much purer level for me as a chief revenue officer, and still at heart a publisher. That’s the most exciting part of our business and what keeps so many of us active. It’s the creativity, but always knowing that it’s only creative if it satisfies that client’s objective.

So, yes, Us Weekly has had a very, very big stake in sponsored content and branded and custom content. In fact, the articles that you may be reading had recognized some of the programs that we triggered recently, first with the paper and packaging board, with the GRAMMY’s and being able to include them in a big GRAMMY-based initiative; Music’s Biggest Night, it was not formerly working with the GRAMMY’s, but again, being able to recognize and have some contextual relevance to awards programming.

And then most recently, with the completion now of the Olympics, we were able to align our client Nutrish with Olympics programming. So, context and relevance, as classically done by ad-placement in magazines, is now on steroids. (Laughs)

And we created a custom video with Kelli Stack, who was an Olympian, and she rescued some dogs from Sochi, when she was last participating in the Winter Olympics there. And we were able to sit down with her and understand how these wonderful animals helped her and her training, her relaxation, and her motivation. And it was a win-win with tremendous results. In fact, the contest, it was a user-generated contest where you provided pictures of your Olym-pet, and the votes were just under 900.000 in two weeks. It was very exciting.

Samir Husni: You mentioned the celebrity environment of Us Weekly has almost two million copies every week. What’s your response when people say the entire celebrity genre and the weekly genre has no future in print?

Vicci Rose: I totally disagree. The fact remains, whether it’s Us Weekly or some of our key competitors, we are able to provide a tremendous amount of paid circulated copies every single week. You just have to look at Us Weekly and People magazine. Again, the landscape has changed, where today not as much of our sales are at retail as they were before, but our average customer is paying roughly $70, that’s the actual price paid, for our subscription; for 52 weeks a year. And we’re able to sustain the circulation and in fact, the advertising, for 52 copies per year. And almost all of our weekly competitors in the entertainment and celebrity space are able to do that as well.

We do have a number of competitors that have double issues and so have lowered their frequency, but it’s still in the mid to high 40s, forty copies going out there. In fact, and this is fact not fiction, there is an audience out there buying hundreds of thousands of copies a week in our space, when the suggestion is that they could be getting much of this content online for free. So, there’s clearly a perspective, a point of view, a treatment, a community of celebrities that we include; how we approach them and frankly, how each one of these properties addresses this audience, is different.

To the untrained eye it may not be apparent, but our duplication among the magazines, let’s say, each one of us has a different statistic, but it’s between 15 and 18 percent on average, which in the scheme of things is very, very low in terms of duplication. If you look at some of the fashion/beauty books, some of those duplications can be in the 30 percentiles or women’s service books, again between 20 and 30 percent duplication.

So, the fact remains that our category is still quite vibrant and able to sustain this number of magazines every week. And I would tell you that Us Weekly, I do believe and continue to believe, that Us Weekly’s continued success, which originated with Jann Wenner’s initial vision for Us Weekly, remains today, 18 years later. We launched as a weekly 18 years ago in March, it’s hard to believe.

But today what drives us weekly and one of Jann’s initial comments to me, in terms of how he saw Us Weekly differing from our prime competitor at that time and even today, People magazine, is that he said, you know, a lot can happen in a week. And if we continue to focus our editorial perspective and objective on that kind of currency, in things that happen here and now, we will continue to win. And that has been a driving piece of our brand equity even today.

If you come on Us Weekly’s site on The Stylish channel, one of our strongest portfolios is called About Last Night, and it is a photo gallery of celebrities and what they looked like, fashion and beauty, in real time, updated every day. Or if it’s in the pages of Us Weekly, most of that editorial content happened in the last five to seven days. And if there is a rare occasion where a story isn’t yet fully baked or we decided that there’s something else that needed to go in its place, we rarely post that story only to run it the following week, because it won’t have the same sense of currency and urgency that it needs to have.

And that’s how Us Weekly continues to stay relevant to our audience. And integrity also drives that, or transitioning overtime, integrity, credibility, those are the demands of our audience. And as long as we continue to provide true news in an era of fake news, I think we will continue to thrive as we are today.

Samir Husni: Why are there less of your success stories out there in the media, in the general magazine media environment, than all of the doom and gloom stories that we hear about magazines and magazine media?

Vicci Rose: The proliferation of new products, new digital products, new software; the average CMO (chief marketing officer) today would be bombarded by not just six or seven entertainment magazines and 10 fashion and beauty magazines and the Seven Sisters. I mean, they are bombarded with thousands of alternatives today. So, I think in many cases, the decisions and the interaction with the publishing community has really been largely deferred to the advertising agencies. And they too have taken on such tremendous responsibility, as well as seeking new revenue streams.

And so I think the combination of the proliferation of alternatives, squeezing the dollars allocated to marketing, and again, we have a lot of clients that now within their marketing channel have so many objectives, high funnel, low funnel, where they’re judged, how they’re judged, how the executives themselves are compensated.

I think you’re very right, and frankly, this is what keeps me up at night. My greatest concern is how do I break through? How do we as an industry break through? How do we gain the attention of the ultimate decision makers for the funds? Thankfully we have a very strong leader in Linda Thomas Brooks at the MPA, and she has tremendous client-side perspective, agency-side perspective, and I think she’s doing an incredible job at breaking through that gauntlet.

But we’re not there yet. And I think we need very resilient and tenacious leaders in our industry who understand and will make this effort daily. And with no change in our resolve. Working with Linda and seeing her new presentation has given me personally the resolve and my team the resolve.

And as I mentioned to you, we have now adapted our presentation to include many of the facts and the findings that the MPA has given us. And I would tell you that in the last couple of weeks, since we decided to redirect a portion of our efforts to the “why print” equation, it’s always been implicit in what we’re selling, but now it’s “why print” as part of the larger picture. We have had tremendous response on both the strategy side of the agencies and certain key clients. We’re very, very excited about what we’re seeing now.

And it may be good timing. As you said earlier, there are many clients that are scratching their heads and saying, oh my gosh, we rushed into digital and now we have to think about where that true balance should be. And we may be coming in at just the right time to help them see that the balance is the prudent course.

Samir Husni: I tell my students that when digital exploded onto the scene in 2008, she became the mistress that no one could resist, while print was that faithful and steadfast spouse. People began spending all of that money on the mistress, digital, meanwhile there was the spouse, print, asking the question: what is she giving you for your money?

Vicci Rose: (Laughs) Well, it’s interesting, there’s no question that digital, when it’s done right and with integrity…I always think, how did we end up here? The publishers have always had these tremendously solid relationships with our agencies and with our clients. And so, how did we lose so badly? You’re anecdote here is a perfect one for this because here we were, loyal, supportive; all of the editorial mentions that the editor is independent of commercial investment. And the support we’ve given over the years, yet, there was this shiny new object, the one that was thought to be the more exciting of the two.

But I do feel that there is tremendous value. Us Weekly alone, for example, our own Google Analytics are roughly 30-35 million unique visitors a month that come to Us Weekly. But they go 350-400 million pages deep in our site. In fact, we are thrilled, we’ve worked really hard to develop the kind of relationship in the digital platform that would allow this audience, not only to come to usmagazine.com, but to come daily, multiple times per day.

But we do believe that there is a different experience, that the reader or the visitor has very different expectations when they come digitally. There are so many pages, there are so many galleries and videos. And when they come to the pages of the magazine, they have a much more curated view. Tina Brown once said that when she starts at the front of the magazine and she ends at the end of Us Weekly, she knows everything that she needs to know about those 20 to 30 people that everyone is talking about right now. It was many years ago that she stated that, but that’s still true today.

So, there is a different promise in the pages of the magazine than there is in digital, which allows us to really update the information minute-by-minute. And our content leadership, Dylan Howard, Jen Peros, our Style and Beauty director, Gwen Flamberg; they’ve done a tremendous job at really delivering on that expectation on the part of our audience. Far surpassing my expectations in a relatively short period of time since we transitioned to AMI’s ownership.

And while it was a challenging transition just in moving from one corporate culture to another, the commitment was very clear from the get-go. David (Pecker) understood the difference in our property; he understood how important the relationship with our digital audience was and continued to allow us to invest time, energy and resources in delivering. And I’m very excited to say that February, while the comScore for February isn’t out yet, it should be one of our largest comScore audiences in the last five years.

Samir Husni: If I showed up unexpectedly at your home one evening after work, what would I find you doing? Having a glass of wine; reading a magazine; cooking; watching TV; or something else?

Vicci Rose: I think all of the above. (Laughs) If you came to my house, you would probably find me somehow connected with my work. While I’m probably not proud to say it, other than my family and my twins, who are turning 21 soon, I am really totally immersed in what I do. But luckily that immersion does include a very significant and substantial immersion in pop culture and entertainment. I see a tremendous amount of movies; I watch a tremendous amount of television across the full spectrum: broadcast, cable, streaming.

I do have my projects that I’m absolutely obsessed with and I look forward to them and I support that through some of the social media that I see. I am also obsessed with cooking and that landscape, both digitally and in print. And if I go to bed at night, even if I may turn off the lights between midnight and 2:00 a.m., I’m always reading a book, if albeit only a very few pages before I go to sleep.

So, I would tell you that is where I find my personal enjoyment, and the boring of the lines between work and relaxation are just fine with me.

Samir Husni: If you could have one thing tattooed upon your brain that no one would ever forget about you, what would it be?

Vicci Rose: I think I’d like to have people think of me as their partner, a real consultative, professional who is dedicated and enthusiastic about what I do 12 and 14 hours per day. And that they can trust me to be a really committed and productive partner. I think that’s true with my dedication and my commitment in everything I do. I’d like that to be my legacy.

Samir Husni: My typical last question; what keeps you up at night?

Vicci Rose: Two things, I have to be honest. One is, as we said earlier, how do we get the market to see the true value of print, which is there for them to see, it’s just a question of breaking through. And the other side of the equation, which is something that does plague all of us in the business, not only on the print side but also on the pure play digital, how do we accelerate the adoption of audiences to pay for the content they are consuming? Some are doing it well, others are doing it even more brilliantly, but as an industry we have not yet after 20 years or more, we have not as an industry solved this challenge.

So, that is another one that keeps me up at night as I watch more and more of my audience, and I’m thrilled to see the growth in those audiences, but the burden on advertising is just too great to sustain it for the next 20 or 30 years.

Samir Husni: Thank you.

“We call ourselves digital-led rather than digital-only because our approach to the brand is, what do we need to do to provide our audience, to provide our readers and viewers and the people who care about us with the products they need that will help them the most? And then the business can sustain. The truth is a print product is not out of the picture in the future, whether it’s in the form of an occasional SIP or something more regular; it’s something that we need to consider. There’s always going to be a place for print within the brand at some point.” Carolyn Kylstra…

Since 1979, Self has been helping its readers attain health and wellness through fitness, nutrition, and overall happiness, to become one of the ultimate authorities on the subjects. The Condé Nast brand has been a staple in the marketplace ever since, but in 2016 the company made the difficult decision to fold the print edition of the brand, opting to keep the digital properties and to publish occasional special print editions around multiple health and wellness-related moments.

The brand’s editor in chief, Carolyn Kylstra, said the brand prefers “digital led” to digital-only, and the reason behind that phrase is because the brand still believes in print and in a multiplatform existence, not just a website. In order to continue the meaning behind the brand’s mission, according to Carolyn, which is helping people feel better, being multiplatform is the only way to succeed in today’s marketplace and provide the same factual, entertaining and helpful information the brand has always given to its loyal audience. Print Proud Digital Smart fits Self to a Tee.

So, I hope that you enjoy this conversation with a woman who has come a long way from her days as an entry level employee in this business of magazines and magazine media, just a short 10 years ago, the Mr. Magazine™ interview with Carolyn Kylstra, editor in chief, Self.

But first the sound-bites:

On the transition from digital + print to digital-only: We like to think of it as digital-led, rather than digital-only, because print as a product isn’t something that we’re 100 percent giving up on, we’re just changing the business model. The transition was, obviously, intense, scary and upsetting. It was a big change. I grew up reading Self and it was one of my favorite magazines when I was younger. I got it every single month. I have so much respect for the heritage of the brand and a huge amount of nostalgia.

On whether she thinks changes in digital, such as Snapchat, is helping the platform reinvent itself and in turn is helping digital brands such as Self to sustain and continue: I think again, it’s looking at what the business can sustain, and it’s looking at what makes sense for the audience that you have at that given moment in time. Self has grown. We’ve grown since the print folded. We’ve added people for Snapchat; we’ve added people for social; we’ve added people for video. Obviously, this was a business decision, but it was one that Condé Nast, to their credit, they’ve been incredibly supportive and they’ve given us the resources that we need to be successful in digital.

On whether she ever sees Self following in Wired’s footsteps and charging for its digital content: For Self, it’s something that we’re always talking about. I think paywalls are so smart and so interesting, and I find them really hopeful. They’re just so optimistic, especially in this environment; the media environment right now is so anxiety-inducing. And launching a paywall is just such an optimistic choice because it says that we know that our content is so differentiated and that our audience is so engaged that they are willing to pay for it. And the better our content is, the more willing they will be to pay for it, etc.

On whether the curation and branding process is the same for Self without the print product: The way that I think about it and the way that we talk about it internally is that when we made the decision to no longer publish in print regularly as a subscription product, it forced us to kind of go back to the drawing board. There’s a difference between running a website and running a brand. And the work that we did at the beginning of last year, after the print folded, was figuring out how we take this operation where we were running a website, making sure that we were getting a certain amount of traffic, hitting our KPIs, etc., how do we turn it into something where this is a brand? Where you no longer have that beautiful, incredibly high quality print product that people can hold onto. This is what the brand is and you need something to replace it among your consumers, in the industry; people need to be able to say this is what the brand stands for.

On whether her life is easier now that there are no print deadlines to worry about or she has more deadlines than ever before: That’s a really good question. I came from print originally. I worked at Men’s Health and Cosmo on print before I went fully digital. There are deadlines for everyone. (Laughs) With digital it’s a different type of deadline. Something that we’ve actually been working on this year is, we’ve made the intentional decision, and I think it was February of last year, to stop chasing aggregated news. It was driving a lot of traffic; it was important for the website, but thinking again about what the brand stands for, I kept coming back to the questions, why are we writing about this; what is this serving, in terms of our mission; is this serving our mission?

On whether there was an “A-ha” moment when she knew they had to stop chasing news and treat the website like a brand instead of an aggregated news site: There wasn’t really an “A-ha” moment. One of the things about working in digital, or honestly just working in today’s media environment at all, is that you have to always iterate. You have to look at what’s working, what’s not working; what’s working today isn’t necessarily going to work next week or in two months. (Laughs) Over the first six months, thinking about how we could grow this business, knowing that the realities of today’s media business, what they are, and knowing that the strongest brands are the ones that have the most loyal audiences, it just made sense. It just made sense to make sure that whatever we were putting out there was content, our information, our experiences, our products, or tools that people would find incredibly useful and that they would be emotionally attached to.

On Self’s ability to monitor the audience that may be monetized from their web content and the audience that has no monetary potential at all: We have really wonderful insights and data and analytics. And a lot of information about who we’re talking to and who’s spending time and who’s looking at multiple stories when they’re on the website. Or who’s consuming our content on Instagram or on Snapchat. I think, in a sense, it’s almost easier today than it used to be to understand your audience and understand what resonates with them. And to figure out how to serve them better.

On whether she still feels the same anxiety today as she did when the print component of Self folded: We still exist in the current media environment. I want to clarify that when the magazine folded, I wasn’t worried about the brand. I wasn’t worried that the brand wasn’t an important brand or that people didn’t love it. My main concern was what this said in the marketplace and the fear that our readers might say that since they no longer had the magazine, they weren’t interested. I was quickly disabused of that, because again, our readership has grown. And our engagement has grown and the timespan has grown.

On how her background in print has helped or hindered her since moving to digital: It was so important. I started out at Men’s Health and then I was at Cosmo and I learned so much from really incredible editors at both brands. My first fully digital job, because I did digital things at those brands, I never had a fully print job anywhere because I started in 2008 and it already didn’t make sense to have a fully print anything. And I started at an entry level position, so whatever they told me to do I did. But my experience learning from print editors was absolutely invaluable to my work as a digital editor.

On the advice she would give to future industry leaders: As far as advice, I interview so many entry level people and the things that I always want to say are be enthusiastic for whatever opportunity is coming your way; do the best, be the best that you absolutely can be, and this is going to sound really weird and specific, but format everything you do really meticulously. Everything you turn in, format it really beautifully, because, let’s say you’re an intern and somebody asks you to write a memo outlining what a celebrity has done. An editor is about to interview a celebrity, this is just a completely random example. Make sure that memo is perfect and beautiful and easy to scan and something that the editor will look at and say, this made my life so much easier, this made my job easier and I don’t even have to think when I’m assessing this.

On anything she’d like to add: Other than we’re truly multiplatform and we’re really not digital-only, in the sense that we exist off of digital platforms as well. We have an event series, it’s our Run Club series and it’s not digital; we have products in Target and Bed, Bath & Beyond that’s not digital. And we had an SIP last year; we’re constantly in discussions about other SIPs or other print products, so it’s not just a talking point to say that we’re digital-led, it’s actually true, because again, a brand has to be multiplatform and diversified in order to succeed.

On what someone would find her doing if they showed up unexpectedly one evening at her home: I have a six-month-old, which means my entire life has changed very dramatically in the past year. Before I had the baby, I would stay at work from 6:30 a.m. until 8:30 p.m. on any given night. It was very dependent on the amount of work I had my poor husband just kind of dealt with it. (Laughs) Now, I leave work at 5:30 p.m. on the dot, because I want to make it home in time to put her to bed, so I get home about 6:15 p.m. I give her a bath; I put her to bed. My husband and I have dinner around seven-ish. And then sometimes I’ll finish up the work that I haven’t finished during the day because I’m leaving earlier. But if I’ve been really good and I finished my work for the day, we’ll read on the couch or watch Netflix. It’s really not that exciting.

On what she would have tattooed upon her brain that would be there forever and no one could ever forget about her: I want people to think of Self as the ultimate wellness authority and wellness that they can trust. And that we’re doing everything that we can to make the brand as inclusive and as helpful as possible. I want people to think that we’re doing really meaningful, powerful work that reaches people.

On what keeps her up at night: Politics. I’ll wake up in the middle of the night and I’ll be so angry because my baby is actually sleeping through the night, and I finally have the opportunity to get a solid eight hours, and things that have happened politically, the state of our discourse in this country, fake news and just how mean and toxic people are. And the discourses and how people are talking to each other and the way that so many people don’t have access to healthcare or having their healthcare access threatened, and how so many immigrant families are being threatened right now with being split up or deportation. I feel incredibly, emotionally anxious about the state of our politics right now.

And now the lightly edited transcript of the Mr. Magazine™ interview with Carolyn Kylstra, editor in chief, Self.

With Carolyn Kylstra, editor in chief, Self at the Condé Nast’s office in NYC.

Carolyn Kylstra: I was actually here for a little over a year before that. So, I have been at Self for the past two and a half years, but about one year ago they folded the print edition.

Samir Husni: And that’s when you became editor in chief.

Carolyn Kylstra: Yes.

Samir Husni: Tell me about that transition from a print + digital to a digital-only entity.

Carolyn Kylstra: We like to think of it as digital-led, rather than digital-only, because print as a product isn’t something that we’re 100 percent giving up on, we’re just changing the business model. The transition was, obviously, intense, scary and upsetting. It was a big change. I grew up reading Self and it was one of my favorite magazines when I was younger. I got it every single month. I have so much respect for the heritage of the brand and a huge amount of nostalgia.

And then on top of that, when a company or business makes a decision like this, that means that there’s obviously major upheaval and change within the organization internally. And so we were very sad to no longer be working with so many of our colleagues and afraid of what the future would hold, and concerned about what the message might be in the marketplace. I think there’s been a kind of assumption that when a brand folds its print publication that’s the first step before it folds altogether. So, when Condé Nast made the decision to change our business model back in December 2016, this is what was on all of our minds. It was not a happy day.

But it was a really big opportunity for the brand and I feel like it really gave us the flexibility that we needed to make the changes that we needed to make in order to succeed in this media environment. And I’m thrilled with how it’s actually turned out. And I feel incredibly hopeful and positive looking to the future, and so proud of the team. And I’m just really excited about what we’re working on now and what we’re going to be working on in the future.

And again, just to bring it around full circle, I started out answering this question by saying that we call ourselves digital-led rather than digital-only because our approach to the brand is, what do we need to do to provide our audience, to provide our readers and viewers and the people who care about us with the products they need that will help them the most? And then the business can sustain. The truth is a print product is not out of the picture in the future, whether it’s in the form of an occasional SIP or something more regular; it’s something that we need to consider. There’s always going to be a place for print within the brand at some point.

Samir Husni: You weren’t being far-fetched when you said that, historically speaking, any brand that kills its print edition, it’s like the kiss of death, it’s over, but the brand was going to live online. And until recently, no digital brand has lived more than 16 months after the print component was killed. Then came Snapchat. Do you think the change in digital is helping the brands continue, that digital is reinventing itself, or is it something else?

Carolyn Kylstra: I think again, it’s looking at what the business can sustain, and it’s looking at what makes sense for the audience that you have at that given moment in time. Self has grown. We’ve grown since the print folded. We’ve added people for Snapchat; we’ve added people for social; we’ve added people for video. Obviously, this was a business decision, but it was one that Condé Nast, to their credit, they’ve been incredibly supportive and they’ve given us the resources that we need to be successful in digital.

So, it wasn’t just, we’re going to cut all of these people and then you’re just going to have to make do. It was, let’s look at this business holistically and think about what makes the most sense right now, given the resources that we have and the resources that we can provide. We expanded our health team, we went from one to four people. In health, we have a big Snapchat team. And Snapchat is absolutely one way that we’ve expanded and grown the brand digitally, but it’s only one platform of many that we’re operating on. Our video views have skyrocketed because we’ve been able to focus a little bit more on video and video strategy.

Our traffic is higher than it’s ever been and that’s because we’ve been able to focus on what we need to be doing digitally, and that’s just on the website. Again, with Snapchat, that basically doubles our audience and we’re reaching a whole new group of people who may not have ever heard of Self before because we’re talking about a younger demographic.

And so, we’re doing what we need to do with the brand in order to get it to a place where it’s really healthy, although that’s what we were doing last year; right now we’re doing great. We’re in a really healthy position, so this year is really about expanding and increasing engagement on all of the platforms that we’re on.

Samir Husni: As you attempt to increase that engagement; you know, Wired just recently announced the paywall, yet the majority of the magazines are still on this welfare information society system, that they don’t charge for content. Do you see that ever changing?

Carolyn Kylstra: For Self?

Samir Husni: Yes, for Self.

Carolyn Kylstra: For Self, it’s something that we’re always talking about. I think paywalls are so smart and so interesting, and I find them really hopeful. They’re just so optimistic, especially in this environment; the media environment right now is so anxiety-inducing. And launching a paywall is just such an optimistic choice because it says that we know that our content is so differentiated and that our audience is so engaged that they are willing to pay for it. And the better our content is, the more willing they will be to pay for it, etc.

I think for Self, we’re constantly talking about what do we do in this space that is different from what everyone else is doing in this space and how can we find products that are so specialized that our audience will be excited to pay for them. We’re still working on that, but it’s a conversation that we’re definitely having.

Samir Husni: You’ve seen how the print magazine was produced when you were working; how has that changed your thinking as a digital-only-for-now editor? Do you go through the same process of curation to create an issue or you feel like you’re on a treadmill and there’s no stopping?

Carolyn Kylstra: (Laughs) The way that I think about it and the way that we talk about it internally is that when we made the decision to no longer publish in print regularly as a subscription product, it forced us to kind of go back to the drawing board. There’s a difference between running a website and running a brand.

And the work that we did at the beginning of last year, after the print folded, was figuring out how we take this operation where we were running a website, making sure that we were getting a certain amount of traffic, hitting our KPIs, etc., how do we turn it into something where this is a brand? Where you no longer have that beautiful, incredibly high quality print product that people can hold onto. This is what the brand is and you need something to replace it among your consumers, in the industry; people need to be able to say this is what the brand stands for.

But at the same time we have the resources that we have in order to hit our KPIs and all of that stuff, so it was a matter of really looking at who do we have, who’s on the team, what skills do they have; what do we need to do to hit our goals? What do we need to do to meet the needs of the business and then how can we adjust to make sure we’re also keeping the brand as established as it is, as that sort of flagship product.

And so the way that we’ve addressed that is we have our daily grind and then we also have our special projects. I separate the team into two groups in my mind. The truth is everyone is working on everything all of the time, but you have your editors who are working on producing the content that people want to read every day, and we think of that as keeping the website afloat and doing what you need to do for the website.

And then you have your loftier, more ambitious stuff that are the packages that you want to do. We have our challenges; we do three fitness/wellness challenges per year roughly, where we engage the community around a month-long experience. And we have a Facebook group that’s devoted to it and its daily newsletters, and it’s a big photo shoot and there are videos attached to it. And that’s just one example of one of the tent poles that we do to make this brand stand for something. And we have community-based experiences and it’s the high quality work that people are used to seeing from the brand.

Samir Husni: Releasing yourself from the print deadlines, is your life now much easier or you have more deadlines than ever before?

Carolyn Kylstra: That’s a really good question. I came from print originally. I worked at Men’s Health and Cosmo on print before I went fully digital. There are deadlines for everyone. (Laughs) With digital it’s a different type of deadline.

Something that we’ve actually been working on this year is, we’ve made the intentional decision, and I think it was February of last year, to stop chasing aggregated news. It was driving a lot of traffic; it was important for the website, but thinking again about what the brand stands for, I kept coming back to the questions, why are we writing about this; what is this serving, in terms of our mission; is this serving our mission? Is it actually, beyond driving traffic, which is obviously important for the business, but beyond driving traffic, is this helping us distinguish ourselves as a brand? Is it helping people understand? When they click on one of these stories, do they know that it’s Self? Do they care that it’s Self? Do we have a particular point of view?

And so what we did was we looked at our mission and decided our mission is wellness you can trust. Self has always been a health and wellness brand. We were launched in 1979 and it was one of the first health and wellness magazines, it was long before wellness became the buzzword that it is today, and the whole point was to help people feel better. So, we kind of circled back to that. We are wellness that you can trust; we have that historical authority, so what does that mean and how do we accomplish that?

We established that we have three underlying values for every piece of work that we create; inclusivity, because people will only be helped by your content and your products and your experiences when they can see themselves in your world. Accuracy, because it’s only helpful if it’s true. And empathy, because we’re all trying our hardest, and no one is perfect, and there’s a lot of pressure and anxiety, and we’re here to help people feel good. They won’t feel better if we don’t make them feel good.

From there, I looked at the news that we were doing, at the aggregated news that we were doing, and decided that it didn’t make a ton of sense for what the brand is. So, we really shifted our editorial strategy in that regard. And to answer your original question about deadlines, that made it a lot more manageable, in terms of work/life balance, because we were no longer constantly online trying to report on things that just happened, trying to write about it.

We had a piece about the Super Bowl halftime show that went up right after, but in a previous year we would have probably had people on call, all that day, writing little pieces all day long. This year we only contributed to the conversation in a way that made sense for the brand. And so the deadline element of it, weirdly enough, has gotten a lot more manageable now that we’re focusing on brand over website.

Samir Husni: What you’re talking about with the web and the brand is common sense. I always say that the word newspaper is an oxymoron, you can’t have news on paper anymore. When was that “A-ha” moment when you knew you had to stop chasing news and treat the website like a brand instead of an aggregated place to put every piece of health and wellness news that was out there?

Carolyn Kylstra: There wasn’t really an “A-ha” moment. One of the things about working in digital, or honestly just working in today’s media environment at all, is that you have to always iterate. You have to look at what’s working, what’s not working; what’s working today isn’t necessarily going to work next week or in two months. (Laughs)

S. I. Newhouse launched the brand in 1979 because when he was growing up his mother always talked about how she needed her “me” time. And so he thought it was so important that there was a brand for women that would help them kind of reclaim their time and practice self-care, even though we weren’t necessarily as a mass culture talking about self-care back then. That’s something that I’ve known and once I was entrusted with the brand became really important to me that I honor this legacy.

So, over the first six months, thinking about how we could grow this business, knowing that the realities of today’s media business, what they are, and knowing that the strongest brands are the ones that have the most loyal audiences, it just made sense. It just made sense to make sure that whatever we were putting out there was content, our information, our experiences, our products, or tools that people would find incredibly useful and that they would be emotionally attached to.

Samir Husni: The founding editor of Self back in 1979, Phyllis Starr Wilson, was reported as saying, as long as we have a willing audience who is capable of paying the price for the magazine, we will have a magazine. Today, you have a big audience, they’re all over the place; how do you determine which is your genuine audience, the ones that are able to be monetized, and the “trash audience,” as Bob Garfield defines those people who receive your website’s content in, say China, and aren’t able to buy your products at all?

Carolyn Kylstra: We have really wonderful insights and data and analytics. And a lot of information about who we’re talking to and who’s spending time and who’s looking at multiple stories when they’re on the website. Or who’s consuming our content on Instagram or on Snapchat. I think, in a sense, it’s almost easier today than it used to be to understand your audience and understand what resonates with them. And to figure out how to serve them better.

Something else that we do is that we’re constantly doing our own version of market research. And we’re constantly soliciting feedback from the people who we reach. After every Challenge, for instance, we send out a survey among the Challenge participants to ask them for their feedback. What did they like; what did they dislike? Did they think the workouts were too hard or too easy? Did they like the recipes? What do they want to see more of, less of? Just things like that. And we take that information and we apply it to the next time that we do it.

We do the same thing on Snapchat to some degree. We put in quizzes and polls that people like to fill out because they like talking about themselves. People love answering quizzes about themselves, but it also gives us really valuable information about what they’re looking for and what they want. We can also tell, based on what people are reading, how long they’re spending on different stories and what kind of content resonates with them. And taken altogether, we know that certain content performs on one platform and certain content performs better on another platform. And how we can make sure that we’re optimizing for the different audiences and the different platforms that exist.

Samir Husni: To quote you about the anxiety: led and fed media environment. Are you now at peace with yourself and with Self as it is a brand today? Do you have the same anxiety as when they folded the print edition? Are you now sailing in calm seas, or just a momentary lull?

Carolyn Kylstra: (Laughs) We still exist in the current media environment. I want to clarify that when the magazine folded, I wasn’t worried about the brand. I wasn’t worried that the brand wasn’t an important brand or that people didn’t love it. My main concern was what this said in the marketplace and the fear that our readers might say that since they no longer had the magazine, they weren’t interested. I was quickly disabused of that, because again, our readership has grown. And our engagement has grown and the timespan has grown.

And what we found with Snapchat was that the content resonates with so many people, and we’re not changing the content to put it on Snapchat; we’re just adjusting it based on what the platform demands. We’re putting it in a certain format, but it’s all the same. It’s all the same message; it’s all the same values; it’s all the same mission. So, in that sense, I feel incredibly excited and optimistic about our future in a way that…I was optimistic about our future last year, but I was anxious that other people weren’t going to be as optimistic as I was.

Samir Husni: How has your print background helped or hindered you since you’ve moved to digital?

Carolyn Kylstra: It was so important. I started out at Men’s Health and then I was at Cosmo and I learned so much from really incredible editors at both brands. My first fully digital job, because I did digital things at those brands, I never had a fully print job anywhere because I started in 2008 and it already didn’t make sense to have a fully print anything. And I started at an entry level position, so whatever they told me to do I did. But my experience learning from print editors was absolutely invaluable to my work as a digital editor.

My first full-time digital job was running a site, being site director at Women’s Health. And I couldn’t have done it without my experience in print, because I knew how to edit; I knew how to write; I knew how to think about the brand and what the brand messaging was. When I was at Men’s Health, I always remember the question for every single thing that we ever created was, where is the service? Because Men’s Health was all about service journalism. And that really drove into my head that you have a brand mission and every arm of that brand needs to fulfill that mission. So, I think I couldn’t have been as successful as I have been without that background in print.

Samir Husni: You’ve come a long way in 10 years, which is almost unheard of in this industry. If you were going to advise future industry leaders, how should they prepare as they enter this field, because we have more students coming to journalism and integrated marketing communications than ever before?

Carolyn Kylstra: I think it’s obvious why. It’s a terrifying time to be in media, but it’s also an incredibly exciting time, because there’s so much going on and there’s so many different ways to reach people, so many different ways to talk to people and make an impact. It just looks different than it used to. The business, obviously, needs to settle down a little bit. But I completely understand why people want to go into the field, it’s more exciting than it was even when I started out.

As far as advice, I interview so many entry level people and the things that I always want to say are be enthusiastic for whatever opportunity is coming your way; do the best, be the best that you absolutely can be, and this is going to sound really weird and specific, but format everything you do really meticulously. Everything you turn in, format it really beautifully, because, let’s say you’re an intern and somebody asks you to write a memo outlining what a celebrity has done. An editor is about to interview a celebrity, this is just a completely random example. Make sure that memo is perfect and beautiful and easy to scan and something that the editor will look at and say, this made my life so much easier, this made my job easier and I don’t even have to think when I’m assessing this.

And it’s so trivial-sounding and it’s so shallow-sounding, but make sure you bold your subheads, make sure you put bullet points, make sure you’re writing in complete sentences with grammatically correct sentences. The little things like that will really make you stand out, which will open up other opportunities for you down the line. That’s really not that helpful, in terms of how to navigate the media industry, but it makes a difference.

Samir Husni: It’s good to hear people like you bringing back those common sense factors to the industry.

Carolyn Kylstra: The other obvious stuff is make yourself a website and put all of your clips on your website; use Squarespace or use WordPress, it doesn’t matter, just make a pretty website that shows what you’ve done and make it easy to contact you, be active on social media, and create a LinkedIn profile. I use LinkedIn constantly to recruit people, just searching different editors or people who have different, specific backgrounds. And that’s how I find a lot of people. Share your work on Twitter, so that you’re easy to find, just things like that.

It’s also common sense, but one of the things that’s frustrating to me is colleges and universities and even grad school programs don’t necessarily teach students how to apply for jobs. And I think that’s just a horrible waste and doing them a huge disservice and people are spending so much money and going into so much debt to attend these colleges and universities and they’re not teaching them the basics about how to be a good entry level applicant. I get so many resumes and so many cover letters where I’m wondering why didn’t anyone tell these people how to write this appropriately to market themselves. I don’t know how to give that advice, but to me, that’s one of the things that is so important. Read as much as you can online about how to write a good cover letter before you send one.

Samir Husni: And don’t copy it. (Laughs)

Carolyn Kylstra: Yes, don’t copy it. It’s little things like that, but it’s also not the students’ fault. I think the colleges and universities really ought to make an effort to do better by their students in this way.

Samir Husni: Is there anything else you’d like to add?

Carolyn Kylstra: No, other than we’re truly multiplatform and we’re really not digital-only, in the sense that we exist off of digital platforms as well. We have an event series, it’s our Run Club series and it’s not digital; we have products in Target and Bed, Bath & Beyond that’s not digital. And we had an SIP last year; we’re constantly in discussions about other SIPs or other print products, so it’s not just a talking point to say that we’re digital-led, it’s actually true, because again, a brand has to be multiplatform and diversified in order to succeed.

Samir Husni: If I showed up unexpectedly at your home one evening after work, what would I find you doing? Having a glass of wine; reading a magazine; cooking; watching TV; or something else?

Carolyn Kylstra: I have a six-month-old, this was something else that happened last year. I found out I was pregnant and then a week later the magazine folded. (Laughs) And my executive editor was in the hospital having just given birth to her first child, so basically the top two people in the brand both took three months off last year for maternity leave. It was a very exciting year.

Anyway, I have a six-month-old, which means my entire life has changed very dramatically in the past year. Before I had the baby, I would stay at work from 6:30 a.m. until 8:30 p.m. on any given night. It was very dependent on the amount of work I had my poor husband just kind of dealt with it. (Laughs) Now, I leave work at 5:30 p.m. on the dot, because I want to make it home in time to put her to bed, so I get home about 6:15 p.m. I give her a bath; I put her to bed. My husband and I have dinner around seven-ish. And then sometimes I’ll finish up the work that I haven’t finished during the day because I’m leaving earlier. But if I’ve been really good and I finished my work for the day, we’ll read on the couch or watch Netflix. It’s really not that exciting.

Samir Husni: If you could have one thing tattooed upon your brain that no one would ever forget about you, what would it be?

Carolyn Kylstra: I want people to think of Self as the ultimate wellness authority and wellness that they can trust. And that we’re doing everything that we can to make the brand as inclusive and as helpful as possible. I want people to think that we’re doing really meaningful, powerful work that reaches people.

Samir Husni: My typical last question; what keeps you up at night?

Carolyn Kylstra: Politics. I’ll wake up in the middle of the night and I’ll be so angry because my baby is actually sleeping through the night, and I finally have the opportunity to get a solid eight hours, and things that have happened politically, the state of our discourse in this country, fake news and just how mean and toxic people are and the discourses and how people are talking to each other and the way that so many people don’t have access to healthcare or having their healthcare access threatened, and how so many immigrant families are being threatened right now with being split up or deportation. I feel incredibly, emotionally anxious about the state of our politics right now.

Samir Husni: Thank you.

“To Answer Your Question Regarding Print Versus Digital, I Also Believe With The Proliferation Of Fake News, I Do Believe That Quality Printed Stories Have An Opportunity To Maintain Or Grow Audience.” Eric Zinczenko…

“The notion that print is dead is not accurate. I think print isn’t dead, it’s just different. Gone are the times where you can operate with an inflated rate base or 12 times per year as a standard. And I think gone are the days too where you were just concerned with whether there was enough fax paper in the machine where you got all of your signed insertion orders back. Those days are behind us. But print for many companies, Bonnier included, is still profitable. It’s just not at the margins that we once enjoyed. And I feel strongly that brands that sit one or two in a category or vertical can thrive if managed correctly.” Eric Zinczenko…

“For companies that are evolving, in challenging their orthodoxies of the way legacy media companies have operated, for the companies that are evolving, those are companies that are seeing opportunity in front of them. And I think maybe companies that are more stuck in the way that we’ve done things for decades, I think it could end up being the worst of times for them. I do feel that the only thing predictable is that disruption is going to continue.” Eric Zinczenko…

When you talk about legacy media, one name that cannot be left out is the Swedish-born Bonnier Corporation. For over 200 years, Bonnier has been in the publishing business in one facet or another. The United States presence of this heritage company formed in 2007 when the American office opened for business. Today, its brands range from Field & Stream to the award-winning Popular Science, with many, many more in between.

And the man heading up this heritage company and all of its robust titles is CEO, Eric Zinczenko. Eric has been successfully progressing the journey and holding the ship steady-as-she-goes since 2015. Before taking on the CEO leadership role, he served as executive vice president of the company, coming from Time Inc. in 2007 as a part of Bonnier’s original management team.

With Eric’s guidance and vision, Bonnier has seen record financial growth and its strongest operating margins. Under his leadership, the company has broadened its capabilities outside traditional media by diversifying into new revenue-growth areas in licensing, agency services, content syndication, digital and events.

I spoke with Eric recently and we talked about his vision for the company and his successes so far. From the record financial growth to the new revenue streams (all of which he has done with a 36 percent decrease in workforce since taking on the role of CEO in 2015), it would appear that legacy media companies can do more with less. Eric credits a lot of the company’s success and his own ability to visualize those strategies for improvement to Bonnier’s ownership, saying that for a media family who has seen everything from wars to disruption in the over 200 years they’ve been in the business, they’re not easily moved. Being patient and not panicking and keeping the lines of communication open only enhances the company’s success.

So, I hope that you enjoy this conversation with a man who “subscribes to the ethic of constant improvement” in all he does and revels in the “privilege of leading (Bonnier) and his colleagues through incredible and complex times” – the Mr. Magazine™ interview with Eric Zinczenko, CEO, Bonnier Corporation.

But first the sound-bites:

On whether he thinks this is the best of times, the worst of times, or somewhere in between for magazine media: I think it’s somewhere in between. For companies that are evolving, in challenging their orthodoxies of the way legacy media companies have operated, for the companies that are evolving, those are companies that are seeing opportunity in front of them. And I think maybe companies that are more stuck in the way that we’ve done things for decades, I think it could end up being the worst of times for them. I do feel that the only thing predictable is that disruption is going to continue.

On what his life has been like for the last three years as CEO of Bonnier U.S.: I think I’d start with something you mentioned, and it’s a quote that I think of often: today will be the slowest rate of change that we’ll experience in our lifetime. From this point on, disruption, technology, and media consumption habits will only be changing and accelerating. And I believe that has had a profound effect. So to your point, I have 25 years in the media business, 12 of those at Bonnier; I’ve worked for all of the major publishing companies, I’ve had time at Time Inc., I’ve had time at Condé Nast, I’ve had time at Rodale, and then the last three years as CEO. And what I’m still adjusting to is how complex these businesses are and how complex these times are, so coming to the office every day, and I said this in a past presentation, it feels like every day Jenga, where our businesses are constantly under pressure.

On moving their CMS system to Arc: We moved to a new platform with our digital and that platform is Arc, which is owned by the Washington Post. We moved to Arc because here at Bonnier we’ve spent the last five years trying to move everyone to a proprietary CMS system that we had. And that CMS system was called Sandcastle. So, we made a decision based on economic factors, based on how we wanted to operate, and the CMS of Arc would be stronger than our own proprietary CMS, so it would have more of a suite of opportunities for us from a digital perspective. So, that was seen as not only an efficiency measure, but actually an opportunity.

On whether he sees a value in print in today’s digital age: I do. The notion that print is dead is not accurate. I think print isn’t dead, it’s just different. Gone are the times where you can operate with an inflated rate base or 12 times per year as a standard. And I think gone are the days too where you were just concerned with whether there was enough fax paper in the machine where you got all of your signed insertion orders back. Those days are behind us. But print for many companies, Bonnier included, is still profitable. It’s just not at the margins that we once enjoyed. And I feel strongly that brands that sit one or two in a category or vertical can thrive if managed correctly.

On whether he feels paywalls, such as Wired has implemented, and other forms of payment for digital will be an accelerated trend: I hope it’s an accelerated trend, but I do feel firmly it will be a trend. I think the newspaper industry has done a pretty inspirational job of getting people to pay for their content, and I think the magazine industry has lagged behind the newspaper industry. But I really do believe there’s opportunity there. You mentioned Wired and I think they’re an inspiration too. So, this is something that we’re absolutely taking interest in at Bonnier and we’ve talked to some consultants that can help us unlock the potential there.

On whether 2016, since he said it was one of the best years of his career, was a walk in a rose garden for him, or there were challenges along the way: It wasn’t a walk in a garden, I don’t think. (Laughs) You know it’s funny, I say today, there are no gifts in our industry. There are no gifts. So, everything that you do is earned today. And 2016 was difficult. I think the biggest challenges for that year were to get people to believe. At the time, when we talked about diversifying and shifting away from our sole reliance on print and digital media, I think that raised some eyebrows. But here we are a few years later and the strategy is taking hold.

On the positives and negatives of a company like Bonnier that has a presence on both sides of the Atlantic: Well first, the positive is we’re lucky to have wonderful ownership. We’re a 200-year-old media company with a media family that has seen it all. They’ve seen disruption; they’ve seen wars and more, therefore they have a very patient, respectful, Scandinavian perspective on everything. So, the pressure is absolutely there to deliver on what you promise, if you say it, it better happen, but they also understand market factors, and they never panic. I mentioned that I am preparing for a board meeting now and I can tell you that my presentations look different today than when I started, where there was just numbers and here’s the strategy.

On the magic wand he uses to do more and better with less workforce: I will not speak for any other company, but I think the experience here is that we had areas of improvement where we could have been more financially disciplined. And the magic wand has been to maximize shareholder value and do it in a smart way. And I think when you make changes like the changes we have made since 2015, it’s very important to communicate those changes and explain why we’re changing and how we’re going to change. Communication is a big factor.

On what he would have tattooed upon his brain that would be there forever and no one could ever forget about him: He subscribed to the ethic of constant improvement in all he did.

On what someone would find him doing if they showed up unexpectedly one evening at his home: Reconnecting with my family and hearing of my kids’ day is the quickest way for me to separate from my work. If work stress is near a high and requires more, I’m a wine enthusiast so I will settle with a great glass of wine and break out my bass guitars and play some music.

On what keeps him up at night: I know most answers from CEO’s are funny. (Laughs) They say they don’t worry and sleep just fine, but truth be told, sleep is difficult for me sometimes. My mind races for what’s next to be done; what could we be doing different; is there enough urgency in our approach; am I giving enough to the office and to my family. The good news is I care about my personal fitness and health to make sure I get a pretty exhaustive workout every day, so the body has no choice but to sleep. I do go to bed early each night and I’m an early riser to be available for communication with Stockholm if necessary.

And now the lightly edited transcript of the Mr. Magazine™ interview with Eric Zinczenko, CEO, Bonnier Corp.

Samir Husni: In magazine media as a whole, it has been the best of times, it has been the worst of times. What’s your view on the industry? Has it been the best of times, the worst of times, or somewhere in between?

Eric Zinczenko: I think it’s somewhere in between. For companies that are evolving, in challenging their orthodoxies of the way legacy media companies have operated, for the companies that are evolving, those are companies that are seeing opportunity in front of them. And I think maybe companies that are more stuck in the way that we’ve done things for decades, I think it could end up being the worst of times for them. I do feel that the only thing predictable is that disruption is going to continue.

Samir Husni: Disruption, as you said, has been moving even faster. June 2018 will be three years for you as CEO of Bonnier in the U.S. What can you tell me about those three years of your very busy life? You’ve been in the media business for years, but as you move toward your third anniversary in June, tell me about those years.

Eric Zinczenko: I think I’d start with something you mentioned, and it’s a quote that I think of often: today will be the slowest rate of change that we’ll experience in our lifetime. From this point on, disruption, technology, and media consumption habits will only be changing and accelerating. And I believe that has had a profound effect. So to your point, I have 25 years in the media business, 12 of those at Bonnier; I’ve worked for all of the major publishing companies, I’ve had time at Time Inc., I’ve had time at Condé Nast, I’ve had time at Rodale, and then the last three years as CEO. And what I’m still adjusting to is how complex these businesses are and how complex these times are, so coming to the office every day, and I said this in a past presentation, it feels like every day Jenga, where our businesses are constantly under pressure.

For a company like Bonnier, we’re not about to just bolt through acquisition, many times we have to manage with what we have. The questions that I have asked each day coming to work have been are we pivoting aggressively enough to new business opportunities? Are we trying to preserve what we have and are the skills and the years of experience, not only in my role, but the roles of many of my colleagues, and the way we think, is it even relevant for the way change is headed? We know that legacy problems and legacy issues can become increasingly destructive, yet we’re still managing a legacy business, so are we doing all we can to position ourselves for success? Those are the things that I think about.

When I took over the role in 2015, the financial situation for the company was a bit different and it required urgency. We ended the year 2015 where we needed to be. And for me, 2016 could be considered maybe the best moment of my career, where in 2015 I stood in front of my board and shared our plans of how we were going to diversify the company, and then in 2016 we delivered on everything we had promised, and then some. We were able to triple our ad year in 2016; we were able to grow new revenue streams, and we did it with 18 percent less workforce than the year prior.

Then here comes 2017 with its own set of challenges and I’m preparing for a board meeting where 2018 looks different. So, to summarize, I just think it’s been a time of accelerated change and it’s important and a leadership moment for me to try and get the company to think differently, break our orthodoxies and move into new areas of growth.

Samir Husni: And 2018 has witnessed some of that accelerated change, you’ve closed some titles, and recently the announcement was made that you’re moving to a new publishing platform, Arc, with Bonnier’s digital channels. Can you tell me about those changes?

Eric Zinczenko: We moved to a new platform with our digital and that platform is Arc, which is owned by the Washington Post. We moved to Arc because here at Bonnier we’ve spent the last five years trying to move everyone to a proprietary CMS system that we had. And that CMS system was called Sandcastle. So, we made a decision based on economic factors, based on how we wanted to operate, and the CMS of Arc would be stronger than our own proprietary CMS, so it would have more of a suite of opportunities for us from a digital perspective. So, that was seen as not only an efficiency measure, but actually an opportunity.

And in terms of our brands, we are tracking the vitality of each of our brands and what we’re finding is the brands in print that are in leadership positions in their particular vertical are the ones that are thriving or doing well. And then some of our other brands that sit maybe two, three, or four in a vertical, those are the ones that are being challenged. And in the case of some of our other brands, we’re just taking them out of print, but still operating them digitally.

Samir Husni: For someone who has been in this business for a quarter of a century or more, do you see a value in print in today’s digital age?

Eric Zinczenko: I do. The notion that print is dead is not accurate. I think print isn’t dead, it’s just different. Gone are the times where you can operate with an inflated rate base or 12 times per year as a standard. And I think gone are the days too where you were just concerned with whether there was enough fax paper in the machine where you got all of your signed insertion orders back. Those days are behind us. But print for many companies, Bonnier included, is still profitable. It’s just not at the margins that we once enjoyed. And I feel strongly that brands that sit one or two in a category or vertical can thrive if managed correctly.

And I think an example of that would be Popular Science, where back in 2010 the late Steve Jobs, if you remember he held up the first iPad and presented Pop-Sci as the first magazine on the iPad. At the time we had over one million print subscribers and we had about 70,000 digital subscribers. Now you would think if there were any infinity group that would switch to digital it would be the readers of a technology product like Popular Science, but fast forward a decade to the end of 2017, we had one million print subscribers. So, I think Pop-Sci still has the strongest circulation economics of any of our brands too. It’s clear that readers still want Popular Science in print.

To answer your question regarding print versus digital, I also believe with the proliferation of fake news, I do believe that quality printed stories have an opportunity to maintain or grow audience. And I think that the magazine printing process, which is still viewed as maybe a detriment, in terms of time to market, I still is an opportunity because it allows time to fact check; I think it allows time to make sure that the story is accurate and they can try for a more timeless perspective. And I believe that.

Samir Husni: As you do this balancing act between print and digital, when do you think you’re going to see that turnaround where people are paying for digital, whether through paywalls or something else, instead of the welfare information society that has, for the most part, existed since the digital explosion? We see brands like Wired, New York Magazine, and The New Yorker having paywalls; do you see this as an accelerated trend?

Eric Zinczenko: I hope it’s an accelerated trend, but I do feel firmly it will be a trend. I think the newspaper industry has done a pretty inspirational job of getting people to pay for their content, and I think the magazine industry has lagged behind the newspaper industry. But I really do believe there’s opportunity there. You mentioned Wired and I think they’re an inspiration too. So, this is something that we’re absolutely taking interest in at Bonnier and we’ve talked to some consultants that can help us unlock the potential there.

Samir Husni: You mentioned that 2016 was one of the best years of your career after achieving what you promised the board in 2015. Was it a walk in a rose garden for you to attain that achievement, or did you have some major challenges along the way?

Eric Zinczenko: It wasn’t a walk in a garden, I don’t think. (Laughs) You know it’s funny, I say today, there are no gifts in our industry. There are no gifts. So, everything that you do is earned today. And 2016 was difficult. I think the biggest challenges for that year were to get people to believe. At the time, when we talked about diversifying and shifting away from our sole reliance on print and digital media, I think that raised some eyebrows. But here we are a few years later and the strategy is taking hold.

I used an example back in 2015 that we need to operate this company just as a portfolio manager would operate a retirement account or a mutual fund, where the ideas are to diversify your revenue and the profit coming in. In 2015 we had 50-something percent of our revenues coming from traditional print; we had 28 percent coming from digital media; and then we had about 20 percent coming from ancillary. And we’re looking to, by 2020, be in a situation where we’re more like 33 percent in those three areas. So, it’s much like future-proofing a retirement account, that’s the way we’re trying to run Bonnier. And that has been a challenge.

Since that time we have had to go through restructures and realignment of the company, and hire new competency in these areas like events and licensing and in some of our marketing services and agency work. And that’s competency that we have to find from outside the office. And that’s been a challenge, the realignments and the restructures.

Samir Husni: Correct me if I’m mistaken, but you are the only surviving company that is still based in Europe, but with a presence in the United States, in terms of the magazine media. Hachette was bought by Hearst, G&J left. What are the positives and negatives of being on both sides of the Atlantic?

Eric Zinczenko: Well first, the positive is we’re lucky to have wonderful ownership. We’re a 200-year-old media company with a media family that has seen it all. They’ve seen disruption; they’ve seen wars and more, therefore they have a very patient, respectful, Scandinavian perspective on everything. So, the pressure is absolutely there to deliver on what you promise, if you say it, it better happen, but they also understand market factors, and they never panic. I mentioned that I am preparing for a board meeting now and I can tell you that my presentations look different today than when I started, where there was just numbers and here’s the strategy.

So, the positive is we have a patient board, a privately-held company, and on the flip side we have a geographic challenge, where my days are a bit different. I’m up many times at 4:30 or 5:00 a.m. to make sure that I’m available for communications with Stockholm. And there’s plenty of travel between Scandinavia, Stockholm and here in New York. But they’ve been patient and they believe in our diversification strategy.

Samir Husni: I hear from almost every CEO that I interview that they’re doing more with less. You told me earlier that your workforce is now 18 percent less than it used to be, yet you’re doing more.

Eric Zinczenko: Let me make a correction, it was 18 percent from 2015 to 2016. Then we had our recent restructure too, so it’s a 36 percent reduction in workforce since I became CEO, and many industry peers would state the quality of Bonnier content didn’t slip, but is actually the strongest yet, as evidenced by the numerous National Magazine Awards and the most recent nominations of General Excellence for Saveur and Popular Science.

Samir Husni: So, what’s that magic wand you’re waving at work that you can produce better and more with 36 percent less workforce? Was the industry spoiled, printing money, that it didn’t care how many people it hired? What’s your magic wand?

Eric Zinczenko: I will not speak for any other company, but I think the experience here is that we had areas of improvement where we could have been more financially disciplined. And the magic wand has been to maximize shareholder value and do it in a smart way. And I think when you make changes like the changes we have made since 2015, it’s very important to communicate those changes and explain why we’re changing and how we’re going to change. Communication is a big factor.

Culture is very important here, and it’s something that I take seriously. And I think culture remains a challenge. I believe it’s an enormous challenge for any media company right now, to keep everyone motivated and leading through the unprecedented disruption. When an organization is going through constant restructures, at times it’s like juggling eggs. It’s impressive when you can pull it off, but it becomes a real mess when it’s done in the wrong way. And we really do try. The approach has been a transformation here at Bonnier of more of a startup approach.

I think most legacy media companies start with the idea of cutting. So, they speak to the manager and find out who on their staff that they can reduce by one or two. And then the next year comes along and they have to cut more. They go back to that manager and that manager picks two more people. But I believe what companies really need to do is start from a zero base, in more of a startup mode. So, it starts with the CEO; who does the CEO need next, it’s the CFO. After the CFO, who’s next? And that’s really how we’ve tried to organize the company and that was part of our big realignment that we just did a month ago.

It’s interesting, there’s other principles we try and speak about here, and again, it’s to break these orthodoxies of the way that we’ve done things, but my view is we have these wonderful brands at this company, if it makes money it makes sense. Imagine an Amazon employee back in the ’90s saying, wait a minute, we ship books, that’s what we do. Or Google back in the ’90s; wait, we’re a search engine company and that’s what we do. There are opportunities everywhere if you just stay true to the brand and you understand your audience and your customer. There’s a lot of opportunity out there.

Samir Husni: If you could have one thing tattooed upon your brain that no one would ever forget about you, what would it be?

Eric Zinczenko: He subscribed to the ethic of constant improvement in all he did.

Samir Husni: If I showed up unexpectedly at your home one evening after work, what would I find you doing? Having a glass of wine; reading a magazine; cooking; watching TV; playing with your two children; or something else?

Eric Zinczenko: Reconnecting with my family and hearing of my kids’ day is the quickest way for me to separate from my work. If work stress is near a high and requires more, I’m a wine enthusiast so I will settle with a great glass of wine and break out my bass guitars and play some music.

Samir Husni: And my typical last question; what keeps you up at night?

Eric Zinczenko: I know most answers from CEO’s are funny. (Laughs) They say they don’t worry and sleep just fine, but truth be told, sleep is difficult for me sometimes. My mind races for what’s next to be done; what could we be doing different; is there enough urgency in our approach; am I giving enough to the office and to my family. The good news is I care about my personal fitness and health to make sure I get a pretty exhaustive workout every day, so the body has no choice but to sleep. I do go to bed early each night and I’m an early riser to be available for communication with Stockholm if necessary.

Samir Husni: Thank you.