Mr. Magazine

“I think there is a place for a curated service, a lifestyle, entertainment, culture, food magazine. It’s not like we’re trying to rewrite the rulebook. We’re just trying to do a really good magazine, which I think after working in media for so long, I’ve really learned how to do.” Shirley Halperin

To say Shirley Halperin, the new editor in chief of Los Angeles magazine , is passionate about magazines, would be an understatement.  Halperin launched her own fanzine as a teen and became an intern at High Times magazine before moving to US Weekly to work under celebrated editor Janice Min, whom she credits with nourishing her editorial skills.

An immigrant who spoke no English when she first arrived in the United States from Israel is today a master of the English language and a skilled and talented editor.  Over the last three decades she practiced her editing skills in a host of consumer and trade publications.  She moved to Los Angeles approximately twenty years ago and the first thing she did was subscribe to Los Angeles magazine.  She thought that was the best vehicle for her to navigate the city.  That familiarity with the magazine became her guiding light as she assumed the leadership position at the magazine and as she carries the new torch to help shed a celebratory light on the city through the pages of the magazine.

“Let’s look at the magazine with a tourist’s eyes. Look at this beautiful city that we live in that has so many different climates and so many different places you can go, and such a multicultural makeup,“ she told me in a fun engaging conversation we had last week.  She added, “The food scene has really been elevated and fashion has been elevated and it’s become the destination for cannabis tourism — all of these things that have happened in the last 10 to 15 years deserved more shine in the pages of the magazine.”

Judging by the few issues she’s edited so far, her statement above rings very true.  Just look at some of the cover stories below and take a look at the current April cover that will hit the newsstands shortly.  As Shirley told me, “ I am bringing the art of magazine making to the magazine.”  Indeed she is.

Enjoy my conversation with Shirley Halperin, editor in chief of Los Angeles magazine.  But first for the sound bites:

On her vision for the magazine: Let’s bring the ooh-la-la back to LA magazine. 

On changing the magazine culture: When I came in, the first thing I wanted to do was just cheer up the place.  It was a little bit of a downer… The covers were like about fires, mudslides and is the apocalypse coming?  Is California going to fall off into the ocean?

On the role of a city magazine: I always like to say we curate your free time. There is a place for a curated service, a lifestyle, entertainment, culture, food magazine. It’s not like we’re trying to rewrite the rulebook. We’re just trying to do a  really good magazine.

On the magazine readership: I think our readership is older.  They came up with magazines.  They remember Los Angeles magazine. This has had a lot of celebrities and politicians and sports stars. And it has made its impact locally.

On the role of AI creating content: In terms of delivering the content that we deliver, it is high quality content.  And it’s using these years and years of all of our editors experience into putting together a really high quality editorial product. I just don’t think of AI as editorial.

On her most pleasant surprise since assuming the job: Learning the diplomacy of working in a team, keeping the peace, keeping people happy, making sure you have a business plan and a vision.

On her biggest challenge: The business side… It’s really about finding the advertisers, finding the companies that you can grow with.

On adapting to a digital world: It took a while for the print world, the old guard to come around to digital. And now we’re expected to be experts in digital… I would say I’m an expert at making a print magazine. Absolutely. But am I an expert in digital? I’m still learning.

On the separation between church and state: I definitely think the wall has been grayed a little bit even at very mass market magazines.  Major national publications by big publishers are doing a lot of advertorial and sponsored content.  I understand why they’re doing it. It is a must for the business.

On AI and Sora and truth and misinformation:  What we bring to our readers is authenticity.  We vet our articles.   All of the sources are fact checked.  They go through many eyeballs. That’s something that AI doesn’t do. It’s like how do you know what’s real? 

On bridging the gap among the magazine readers:  The magazine readership is very wealthy and doesn’t always know street culture or where the best tacos are or any of those things. I’m really trying to bridge those worlds.  L.A. can feel like a very vast sprawl. But in a sense, we have a very tight community and we need to bring that sense of community back.  So that’s  the overarching theme.

And now for the lightly edited conversation with Shirley Halperin, editor in chief, Los Angeles magazine:

Samir Husni: Congratulations on being the new editor of Los Angeles magazine, the magazine for the second largest city in the country.

Shirley Halperin: Thank you.

Samir Husni: You have a great responsibility almost one in every four Los Angeles folks read the magazine and the digital site. What’s your goal? What’s your objective of leading such a magazine after your illustrious career in so many other publications from Entertainment Weekly to The Hollywood Reporter to Variety?

Shirley Halperin: Well first of all, what an honor to speak with you. You are the man of magazines and I’ve been following your work for a long time. So thank you.

Samir Husni: Thank you, Shirley.

Shirley Halperin: When I moved to LA from New York in 2005, almost 20 years ago, the first thing I did was subscribe to Los Angeles magazine. I didn’t know anything about my city, I didn’t know where to go, what to eat.  I found the magazine to be an incredible resource, and really made me feel like I had a new home, like I knew what my new home was.  So I was always a very big fan of this magazine.

In terms of my goal for the magazine when I came in, the first thing I wanted to do was just cheer up the place.  It was a little bit of a downer. It had been after COVID, which granted was incredibly challenging, especially for magazines. The LA Magazine covers were about fires, mudslides and is the apocalypse coming?  Is California going to fall off into the ocean?

And after COVID, we all needed to be lifted up. So my vision for the magazine was, let’s bring the ooh-la-la back to LA magazine.  Let’s look at the magazine with a tourist’s eyes. Look at this beautiful city that we live in that has so many different climates and so many different places you can go, and such a multicultural makeup. The food scene has really been elevated and fashion has been elevated and it’s become the destination for cannabis tourism — all of these things that have happened in the last 10 to 15 years deserved more shine in the pages of the magazine. And I know this because I was a subscriber.

I wasn’t looking to leave Variety, but the position became available and the people who bought the magazine I knew well, especially Ben Meiselas, who’s a very interesting media figure. It just felt right. This is the magazine that I loved and I really feel like I could put my touch on it and make it more for all of LA as opposed to one small segment of LA, which was a very wealthy part of LA.

LA is much more than that. So that was my overarching vision, is to look at it with tourist’s eyes. Remember what it is that we love about this city. Highlight the things that this city has really excelled in, especially in the last five to 10 years. And that is mainly food and culture. That was my vision.

Samir Husni: I took a look at your LAmag.com and it feels like you are now more of a daily with a monthly print publication?

Shirley Halperin: Kind of. I think all the magazines have had to adjust to this.  What information do you provide to your readers on a daily basis?  And what is the stuff that you really you put a team on, editors on,  you have it vetted and looked at by several different people.  It’s like two different products.

I don’t see us as a daily news site necessarily, but I see us as a daily site. I feel like we need to connect with our with our community every day.  And what people are talking about. So if one day it’s the graffiti towers, there’s these abandoned buildings in Los Angeles that have been tagged and now people are like, is this an art project? Is this vandalism? That’s very pertinent to everyday life in in LA.  So I’m just trying to find those stories with a very small team.

I started in magazines running my own little magazine, my own little fanzine, and I had a very small team.  So I feel like I went back completely full circle to 1995 when I was starting out.

Samir Husni: As you look to implement your goal for Los Angeles magazine, what do you think is the role of a city magazine in this digital age? What’s the role of a printed city monthly magazine?

Shirley Halperin: Well, it’s highly curated. I always like to say we curate your free time. What are you going to do on the weekend? Where are you going to go eat? Which neighborhoods are you going to visit? Are you thinking of moving? What is this neighborhood like? What is it like by the hills? What’s it like by the ocean? I feel like there’s a place for that because there’s not a lot of print publications left in Los Angeles. We just broke the news that L.A. Weekly was laying off most of its edit staff. The L.A. Times is really in a mess right now. It’s not like we have a lot of competition.

There is Angeleno and there’s a couple of other magazines here. But I don’t think that they provide the sort of service magazine that we do, which is putting our editors on curating your best life in Los Angeles. I joke that I wish the new generation would embrace print magazines the way they embrace vinyl records.  Can you imagine if one day, like all the gen alphas are like, we just want print,  that’s my dream.  I think our readership is older.  They came up with magazines.  They remember Los Angeles magazine. This has had a lot of celebrities and politicians and sports stars. And it has made its impact locally.

So locally, yes, I think there is a place for a curated service, a lifestyle, entertainment, culture, food magazine. It’s not like we’re trying to rewrite the rulebook. We’re just trying to do a really good magazine, which I think after working in media for so long, I’ve really learned how to do.

Samir Husni: What role do AI and Sora play in the making of Los Angeles magazine? What are you doing to ensure that readers continue to put their trust in the magazine content?

Shirley Halperin:  What we bring to our readers is authenticity.  We vet our articles.   All of the sources are fact checked.  They go through many eyeballs. That’s something that AI doesn’t do. It’s like how do you know what’s real?  We want to touch on what’s real. Now, if that means that there’s going to be immersive exhibits you can do in L.A. that use AI, well, that’s fantastic. But in terms of delivering the content that we deliver, it is high quality content.  And it’s using these years and years of all of our editors experience into putting together a really high quality editorial product. I just don’t think of AI as editorial. I love what it can do.

We use it sometimes to try out headlines. It’s very useful, but it does still come down to the editor saying this is the headline that’s going to work best in terms of our readership, the SEO, all of that. I fully expect L.A. to be among the leaders in bringing together innovation in AI.  We’ll see what that does to the news business.  It’s very sort of vague right now.

Samir Husni: What has been the most pleasant surprise since you accepted the job as editor in chief?

Shirley Halperin:  How much amazing food I get to eat. (she laughs).  What has been surprising? Learning the diplomacy of working in a team, keeping the peace, keeping people happy, making sure you have a business plan and a vision.  And I’m surprised that myself, having been a number two and a number three for a long time, that I was able to take all of those  skills that I learned from editors that I really look up to, like Janice Min, who I worked with for 12 years, like my friend Lori Majewski, who’s doing a lot of writing for us, and Jeremy Helligar at People.

Those are the people that taught me to edit. And now I’m taking all of those skills and using them. That’s what surprised me is my sort of ability to filter all of that information and all of that knowledge from working in the trades, from working at massive entertainment magazines, from working at Us Weekly, where you had to live and die on the newsstand, taking all of that and putting it into this this project has been fulfilling and surprising. 

Samir Husni: What was the biggest challenge?

Shirley Halperin:  The biggest challenge is the business side. I think back to the days of 1999 and 2000 when there was so much money out there from the dot.com boom and it filtered its way to the print magazines. That is no longer the situation. Now it’s really about finding the advertisers, finding the companies that you can grow with.

There’s a lot of really amazing local companies that start in L.A. whether it’s like food or products they start in Erewhon and Whole Foods and then they make it across the country. We need to build with those brands and with those companies. So the business side has been challenging.

Not everyone knows the media world, the traditional print media world. There’s a lot of a learning curve with our owners, which who have been great and super supportive, but they’re not in the media business. So that’s been challenging.

That’s not to say we should still do it this way, but there is a wisdom to this and the wisdom is X, Y and Z.  I just love magazines. I grew up loving magazines. My dream was to be the editor of Bop magazine, which was a teeny bopper magazine, and I became the editor of that magazine.

I’ve fulfilled a lot of my magazine aspirations. But that doesn’t mean that the love for the media has gone away. It really hasn’t.  I’m just as motivated and ambitious today with magazines. But yeah, the business side is a challenge. Print is a challenge.  Finding a balance for your revenues from events, from digital, your traditional advertising, activations, all of the things that didn’t really exist when I was coming up. Now that’s the bulk of the business.  So it takes a lot of business thinking as opposed to purely editorial.

Samir Husni: Do you believe there is still a wall between church and state or that disappeared to the digital revolution?

Shirley Halperin:  I don’t think it’s purely digital. I definitely think the wall has been grayed a little bit even at very mass market magazines.  Major national publications by big publishers are doing a lot of advertorial and sponsored content.  I understand why they’re doing it. It is a must for the business. It’s revenue and you need it.

When I came to Variety, they had a similar situation. They didn’t have a music section. They brought me in because they saw that there was a music business and they wanted to tap into it.  A lot of that was figuring out where there were business prospects, so what kind of editorial package can I put together that can be sold and turned into an event and a moneymaker?  My first task was we need you to come up with a new music franchise for this magazine.  I said I’d always wanted to do a thing called Hitmakers, which is you take a song and you break apart every person who worked on that song — the songwriter, the producer, of course, the artist, but also the team, the marketing team, the A&R team … Those are the people that actually like get into the grooves of the music.  We did this event. We tried it for the first year.  It went really well. Now it’s in year seven. It’s a giant event, hundreds of people and major advertising goes into that issue.

There’s table sales and there’s sponsorships.  It turned into a moneymaker. But that doesn’t take away from the editorial vision, which is let’s break down these songs and really see who is responsible.  A lot of people take credit for a hit song and say I worked on that. I came up with that. But it actually is like probably a dozen to 20 people that it takes to make a hit song.

That’s an example of something where it’s like, is that line blurred? I don’t know. I see it more as collaborative. What are your goals on the business side? What are my goals on the editorial side? And how can we come together with the understanding that this needs to be profitable? It’s not a purely editorial product.

There is a marketing and an advertising component to it. How can we make it work for us?  I’m always thinking of things where we should call this brand and do this special activation that it always involves print of some sort. So maybe it’s a display outdoors.

Maybe it’s something that folds out in our magazine. But it’s something that you can’t get on the Internet. That is what a magazine provides.

That goes back to like my teeny bopper days where I wanted the biggest poster of Duran Duran that I can buy at my local supermarket for $2.95. And that was the magazine that I bought. So I’m still trying to come at it with that with that idea.

And that’s why I’m like Gen Alpha, please embrace magazines. Let us make beautiful products for you. That’s kind of my philosophy on it.

Samir Husni:  Way back city and regional magazine used to have the best off and the worst off. And then, they stuck to the best off. Do you think city and regional magazines have to focus more on the positive things in town?

Shirley Halperin:   Absolutely. That was one of the things I was thinking about when I took the job is to shine a light on the city.  Yes, we have a lot of problems. There’s a homelessness crisis, and the fentanyl pandemic hasn’t come here, but it will.

There’s social media and there’s kids that are having trouble. They’re all incredibly important. And we do shine a light on them.  But I really just wanted to bring back that positivity.  L.A. is made up of mostly transplants. The reason people move here is because they want the sunshine. They want the quality of life. They want a backyard. They want to have pets.

They want to be able to drive to the to the mountains to ski, and the ocean to swim. So, I just wanted to bring that focus back to that. Just thinking of all the people that moved to L.A. or that live here and don’t really know their city or were holed up for three years during the pandemic and have to rediscover their city.  All of these things were stuff  that I thought of.  There’s a lot of things that I want to do that I still haven’t done. But they all celebrate the city.

I grew up in New Jersey and went to spent my early years in New York.  There were alt weeklies like  the Village Voice, the New York Press,  and all of these publications, free weeklies that were available around the city.  They were a resource. It saddens me that they’re no longer around. But I’m taking the feelings and the connections that those  alt weeklies brought and trying to bring it into L.A. magazine.

It’s a challenge. The magazine readership is of a higher income bracket and doesn’t always know street culture or where the best tacos are. I’m really trying to bridge those worlds.  L.A. can feel like a very vast sprawl. But in a sense, we have a very tight community and we need to bring that sense of community back.  So that’s  the overarching theme.

Samir Husni:  So before I ask you my personal questions, is there anything I did not ask and you would like to add?

Shirley Halperin:  That’s such a good question.  I ask a lot of my interview subjects that same question. It sounds like a really dumb question, but it’s actually important because, like, you know, you’re not a mind reader. And it’s often that last thought that I find ends up giving you something more.

So is there anything you didn’t ask about?

I spent 13 years in the trade world, which is a very different animal from the consumer magazine world.  The print advertising situation is not as dire. They need those Oscar campaigns and Emmy campaigns.  I learned a lot about how this town works, which even though it’s a regional publication, it’s not an entertainment publication. This is an entertainment town. And I really feel you need to know that world coming into a position like this as an EIC at L.A. magazine.

So I would just give a lot of credit, even though these products, The Hollywood Reporter, Billboard and Variety were not newsstand titles. They still were incredibly educational in terms of how you hit the town and you hit a particular industry.  You work to cover it well and work with it well.

I think those skills really came in handy. Again, thanks to Janice (Min) for bringing me on to THR and showing me the way.

Samir Husni:  My two final questions.  If I come to visit you one evening unannounced, what do I catch you doing? Reading a book, watching TV, cooking?

Shirley Halperin:  Probably cooking.  I love to cook.  Another pandemic thing that I picked up, I became obsessed with cooking and quality vegetables and produce.   It’s another reason why I moved to Los Angeles, just for the good produce and the good food.

I would probably be watching bad reality TV. I might be listening to a podcast about some crime that happened forever ago.  Or I might also be watching a documentary about some long lost blues musician. I’m just like a real sponge of knowledge.

We had an event last week. It was our L.A. Woman event honoring Kris Jenner as Woman of the Year.  I didn’t launch it, but rethought it for L.A. magazine. Among the honorees were Elizabeth and Catherine An, two sisters who came from a Vietnamese refugee family and went on to build a food-fusion dynasty here in California via the restaurant Crustacean.

I also emigrated, from Israel, and I didn’t speak English when I got here. So all of my immersion and ESL classes were with refugees who were coming from Vietnam or other parts of Southeast Asia at the same time.

And when I was in college at Rutgers University, I was a history major and studied the Vietnam War, which, of course, taught me a lot about America and our politics.  Then to see these incredibly successful two Vietnamese women, I immediately thought about all of the Vietnam studies that I’d done. You know, so it’s just like the sort of like passion for history that’s still there.

I’m so happy and thankful for it. I think a lot of it is because of my family, being Holocaust survivors and then moving to Israel and then moving to the U.S., It’s like we’re a real immigrant story. And I’m fascinated by other immigrant stories.

Samir Husni:  My last question is what keeps Shirley up at night these days?

Shirley Halperin: I’m always thinking about stories that are like three to four to five months away. Another thing I learned at the trades was the value of a good anniversary, you know, whether it’s like the launch of a major studio or someone’s birth or someone’s death or someone’s legacy.

I’m always thinking about like, oh, it’s 2024. What happened in 1964 that we could mark this year or maybe 84?  Should we be looking at 84? Is it an 80s year right now? These are the things I think about as I’m going to sleep. Isn’t that ridiculous? No,  it’s fun.

It keeps your mind working.

Samir Husni:  Thank you

“I think that the opportunity for ADWEEK is really to transcend the category of trade publication and to evolve into a business intelligence resource platform tool for not just advertisers and marketers and people who are in the brand world, but also media, technology, publishers, and ultimately the aspiration for us to be as valuable and as essential to CEOs and CFOs.” Will Lee

“I want to capture the executive or the director’s 8 to 10 minutes of their morning media diet, however long that is, and however they consume it, but really be essential to them on a daily basis.” Will Lee

From a hefty background in magazine media to a role at NPR, Will Lee, CEO of ADWEEK, is now set to transfer an industry publication to a major resource platform tool to advertisers, marketers and people who are in the brand business world.

He brings his passion and dedication to an industry in dire need of such passion and dedication.  A lot has changed since ADWEEK was launched in 1979.  The industry that the magazine was launched to serve is not the same in 2024 and the magazine itself is not the same.  High hopes and plans are in store for ADWEEK.

To check on those hopes and plans I reached out to Will Lee, who was appointed CEO eight months ago and we had a very pleasant and futuristic conversation. 

But before you read the entire conversation, here are the soundbites:

On his view of the ADWEEK community: What I mean by community is not just convenings and gatherings, but really having a very core group of people who help shape ADWEEK both from external side and inside.

On the role of Sora and AI: I happen to think Sora is something that we need, and generally video. Video based AI is something that we as a publication and as experts really need to help marketers and advertisers understand how to use it and also what the dangers are.

On the trust factor of AI: But if we can figure out a way to use AI to service the information that we already have and the information that we’ll be creating,  people will trust us as opposed to GPT-4 or Gemini.

On the role of print in a digital age: I believe in the ability of a print publication to create a relationship with the consumer that is very different than digital or social or audio or other formats. And the reason that is, it’s  almost an evergreen resource.

On the role of the magazine cover: It’s about having covers that get people’s attention and  say something and are meaningful to the audience. Because, again, these covers, these magazines have to have real utility. So that’s the thing I’m going to stress with the magazine, is that it is very, it is an important and essential utility.

On his job at NPR: So this was almost like a sabbatical that I took in public media. What I would say specifically about NPR, is that NPR actually is a very sophisticated commercial business, if you will.  Obviously, it’s a non-profit, but it thinks like a commercial media company.

On the changes of the media business model: That the notion of scale and audience size as a predictor of commercial success, that correlation is completely going to change

On looking at the future of the business: I think about the agency landscape and about what will happen to creative agencies as a result of Sora and all the rest of the AI tools, as well as how quickly the internet and web publishing are going to be drastically altered over the next two years.

On his views of the open web: We’re about to enter a phase of the open web, which is going to be literally one million times worse than what the blogosphere looked like in 2005. If you think about the barrier to entry was very low, anybody could start a blog and there was all this terrible, low quality content out there. Some of it got monetized and some of it didn’t.

On what keeps him up at night: The way that our media is now shaped from a financial standpoint and from a business standpoint, where so much of the, the media that is high quality, you have to pay for, and you have to pay a lot for, I think is a real problem.

And now for the lightly edited conversation with Will Lee, CEO of ADWEEK.

Samir Husni: Congratulations. It has been eight months since you’ve become the CEO of ADWEEK.

Will Lee: Yes.

Samir Husni: I read you are going to transform ADWEEK from an industry publication to a platform that will reflect that advertising, marketing, journalism that’s taking place in 2024. Can you give me a brief roadmap on what your plans are?

Will Lee: Sure.  I think that the opportunity for ADWEEK is really to transcend the category of trade publication and to really evolve into a business intelligence resource platform tool, however you want to describe it, for the not just advertisers and marketers and people who are in the brand world, but also media, technology, publishers, and ultimately ask for the aspiration is for us to be as valuable and as essential to CEOs and CFOs. Also other members of the C-suite as we are to marketers and advertisers.

Now, of course, the brand ecosystem is still the core of our audience. So we want to be able to serve them in the ways that they need to, but really we want to become a much more valuable resource to the entire ecosystem and to the entire executive team in terms of  a roadmap. That’s sort of the overall vision.

In terms of the roadmap it’s a few things:  One is to continue to raise the standard and the level of our content product. So that is creating new and better email products, for instance, creating new and better audio and video products, and also to use the magazine in more essential and interesting ways. I want to capture the executive or the director’s 8 to 10 minutes of their morning media diet, however long that is, and however they consume it, but really be essential to them on a daily basis.

It is about elevating the level of the product. So if you go beyond that, then in terms of the customer continuum for ADWEEK, there’s the editorial content and there’s our event business, right? We’ll continue to evolve that and connect our editorial and content to our live events in a much, much deeper way. So that’s another part of the roadmap. 

The third part of it is really building community. What I mean by community is not just convenings and gatherings, but really having a very core group of people who help shape ADWEEK both from external side and inside.  Really have a way of connecting all of that into one continuum for our audience.

Samir Husni: You have a trusted brand. How are you going to deal with all the untrusted things that are taking place? From folks using AI to create deep fake videos or whether the new Sora that is coming soon, that’s going to create video from a short text.  What are your plans to combat the negatives of AI and Sora and all the other new technologies that’s coming up?

Will Lee: Sure. I happen to think Sora is something that we need, and generally video. Video based AI is something that we as a publication and as experts really need to help marketers and advertisers understand how to use it and also what the dangers are.

From an editorial standpoint, we need to be curating the best information.  Both from experts internally, but also from the industry to help people understand how to navigate that. There’s a possibility that video AI and particularly, and maybe source specifically, could be the subject of an entire conference for us? Going forward and getting people to talk about it and to understand what the challenges are is really important.

Separately, because we’re a trust resource, one of the things we’ll be working on is using AI to sort of confine the amount of information that you can get from ADWEEK. In other words, almost create  an AI portal or a bot, if you were some kind of product that uses the 45 years of information that we have at ADWEEK to inform the consumer. So we can use it to our benefit.

Obviously, the large language models are going to scrape our stuff from the web and other places.  But if we can figure out a way to use AI to service the information that we already have and the information that we’ll be creating,  people will trust us as opposed to GPT-4 or Gemini.

Samir Husni: In the last few days we’ve seen that those sources are deeply untrustworthy.  When ADWEEK was started in 1979 the status of marketing, the status of advertising and the status of journalism were completely different that we are seeing today. How are you going to use the print edition of ADWEEK to reflect the true value of advertising, the true value of marketing, the true value of journalism, or what directives are you giving to your people?

Will Lee: It’s a really good question, Samir.  As you know, my background, my last job was at NPR and we had a  legacy media source there as broadcast radio. Before that I was with People, Entertainment Weekly, The Hollywood Reporter, and so on.  I really believe in the ability of a print publication to create a relationship with the consumer that is very different than digital or social or audio or other formats. And the reason that is, it’s almost an evergreen resource.  

The thing that we need to do in our magazine going forward is to be very high utility.  It can’t just be pretty pictures and interesting graphics, but it has to be a utility. I talk about it like the magazine should almost be like a Harvard Business School case study that you actually want to read. In other words, like it’s something that you can keep around, you can pass around, you can, you can refer back to it. And of course that product will be very, very closely tied in and integrated with our digital product and our other products.

But how we can transform ADWEEK, the magazine into something that someone wants to keep,  so for instance, if you think about the Harvard Business Review,  we all have stacks of Harvard Business Reviews  in our homes that we don’t want to throw away because we’re worried that we’re going to miss something. And yet you might not read the entire thing.  In fact, you might not read any of it.  I want ADWEEK to have that level of staying power and I think it can. We just put Christina Aguilera on the cover, which, you know, isn’t exactly what the HBR would do. The reason that it’s important for us to have people like Christina on the cover, and we’ve got some celebrity covers coming up.

It’s about having covers that get people’s attention and  say something and are meaningful to the audience. Because, again, these covers, these magazines have to have real utility. So that’s the thing I’m going to stress with the magazine, is that it is very, it is an important and essential utility.  We had Naomi Osaka on the cover. It’s not about having celebrities or not celebrities on the cover. We did a cover with DoorDash,  and we did a cover about their Super Bowl campaign.

Samir Husni:  Just a fun question, in your previous jobs The Hollywood Reporter or Entertainment Weekly, or People, did any celebrity ever ask you to be on your digital page or on the magazine cover? 

It’s a good question. It’s interesting at EW once we started to reduce the frequency, we started to do more digital covers, which were essentially these great assets, short form videos, for social platforms, Instagram, TikTok, and they were beautiful and lushly produced, kind of more so than the print covers. I think the interesting thing about digital covers is just how widely they can be seen, because it still has real meaning for someone to be on a cover like that.

There were people who obviously  wanted the cover.  Particularly People, because it’s still so widely distributed.  The power of a cover is, it’s staying power.  It’s always there. It’s a physical asset.  I’ll tell you this, it’s amazing how many times I get on a call with somebody from an agency or from a brand marketer, and they’ll have a framed cover of ADWEEK in their office and say look, I still have this from when I was on the Hot List cover or whatever.

So it’s actually really, it’s an important asset for us. And I really enjoy the craft. And so it’s, I feel lucky that we still do it.

Samir Husni:  You came to ADWEEK from NPR. So you saw the not-for-profit reporting and dealing with media. How is it different to be working for-profit now? 

Will Lee: Oh, so many ways, Samir, so many ways. Actually, all of my career before NPR was in the for-profit sector. So this was almost like a sabbatical that I took in public media. What I would say specifically about NPR, is that NPR actually is a very sophisticated commercial business, if you will.  Obviously, it’s a non-profit, but it thinks like a commercial media company.  We did a lot of things to license in terms of business development, in terms of even corporate development considering lots of different kinds of M&A and partnerships and so forth, which very much like, are like commercial media.

I think the one thing that is significantly different is from a mission and from a goals standpoint, serving the American public is so much in the forefront of what NPR does, which I don’t think, if you went and asked the CEOs of ten publishing companies, that would be the first thing that comes out of their mouth in terms of like what their mission, what their goals are, which is fine because they have a different set of  stakeholders. But, the thing that was inspiring to me that I loved about NPR, and frankly is going to be really important in 2024 is NPR’s ability to, and the importance of NPR’s service to the American public.

Samir Husni: If you look at the status of marketing or advertising today compared to your previous years, your previous career, how would you describe it? Are we better off? Are we worse than it was? 

Will Lee:  You know we can talk for an hour about this.  Let’s just take advertising specifically. Obviously with what seems like a true cookie-less future happening like in real time, that will change significantly.  Anybody who publishes on the web can make money, It just will, it will change the cost of things, it will change how consumers are targeted.

That will have significant ripple effects on the businesses that I’ve worked with. Until a year and a half or so, that the notion of scale and audience size as a predictor of commercial success, that correlation is completely going to change.

Now, I can’t tell you whether what the true statistical sort of wavelength and amplitude of there is, but it’s going to change significantly.  And I think, that will alter, how media are created. I think also that in marketing, because of the way that the economy has been, so unpredictable over the last year and a half, I think marketers are in a very different situation,  I wouldn’t say that they’re in a very dynamic moment, which is to say their budgets are more under scrutiny.  Their role in growth and in driving the business forward is much “murkier” than it has been in a long time.

ADWEEK’s place in all of this is to help, to quote somebody I spoke to recently, “so it’s kind of messy right now.” And I think one of ADWEEK’s roles is to un-mess that mess.  To be a good curator, to be  good way of helping to clarify.  I don’t pretend that we’re going to have the answers, but I think through all of our different audience touch points, editorial, events, experiences, and community, I think we do have a way to, to help. And so I think it’s a really exciting time for ADWEEK. I think about the agency landscape and about what will happen to creative agencies as a result of Sora and all the rest of the AI tools, as well as how quickly the internet and web publishing are going to be drastically altered over the next two years.

I think this is a really, really interesting time to be at a B2B publication, looking at the landscape as a whole.

Samir Husni: So if you think anyone who has access to a laptop or a phone can be a publisher, is that a good thing or a bad thing? 

Will Lee: I don’t think I have a binary answer there.  I do think that my consumption behavior has changed significantly over the last two and two and a half years where I read a lot more individually published newsletters from people that I trust.  Casey Newton, a platformer, I’ll read across all of my span of interest. Instead of reading a brand, I read individuals.  I do think that the individual contributor is an important force. The notion of anybody being able to create movies, webpages and all this sort of thing.

There’s significant danger there.  We’re about to enter a phase of the open web, which is going to be literally one million times worse than what the blogosphere looked like in 2005. If you think about the barrier to entry was very low, anybody could start a blog and there was all this terrible, low quality content out there. Some of it got monetized and some of it didn’t.

I think you’re about to enter a phase where that will become almost infinite. And that is frightening. We have to have better discovery and better curation.  And frankly, I don’t think that Google and some of the other platforms have taken that seriously enough into account. 

Samir Husni:  Let me shift a little bit,  I used to look at the launch of the year at the Hot List of ADWEEK and sadly speaking there’s not many launches these days. The industry has changed to a bookazine industry.  Do you think this is a sign of the future that we are going to lose big launches Like Portfolio and Domino that ADWEEK used to celebrate?

If you think about what’s happening now with Buzzfeed, Vice, and some of those other businesses.  Which probably replaced some of those big splashy launches.  Media entities now might not just be a magazine. Obviously you wouldn’t just launch a magazine today.

You’d launch the whole span of it  a multi-platform product. We’re going to see more great brands. 

You’ve just given me idea, which is that instead of sort of the launch of the year being focused on a magazine, it’s really the publishing launch of the year. Because in the next year or two, there will be more people who try interesting things. I think they’re going to be narrower and I think there’ll be a little bit more niche. I don’t think you could launch a general interest business publication like Portfolio today. But I do think that you could do something a little narrower, and it could succeed. So it’d be interesting to see how people think of a print product today.

I talk about Monocle a lot and how Tyler (Brule) and his team believe in and lean  hard into the print side of things.  They have multiple print publications. So I do think that there’s room for that.

Samir Husni: Let me just end up by asking you two personal questions. One, if I come to visit you uninvited one evening to your home, what do I catch you doing? Watching TV, reading a book, cooking? 

Will Lee: Depending on what time it is,  reading with my two and a half year old son or building towers out of magnet tiles. After he goes to bed, I love to be in the kitchen trying things out. I do like that.

Samir Husni: My last question to you is what keeps you these days up at night?

Will Lee:  As a first time CEO thing that keeps me up as night is asking myself the question, are we moving fast enough with enough velocity and with enough impact.  Sort of instilling that urgency and embodying it. Showing the team and even our audiences that we are moving quickly we are changing quickly, we are evolving quickly, and doing it  sensibly and responsibly. That’s something I honestly think about in the middle of the night  more often than I’d like.

That’s kind of a personal one, but on a larger scale, the way that our media is now shaped from a financial standpoint and from a business standpoint, where so much of the, the media that is high quality, you have to pay for, and you have to pay a lot for, I think is a real problem. And I’m not saying this as a plug for NPR, but I think that, you know, having free and openly available sources of, of high quality information for the consumer is incredibly important.  That does concern me from almost from the viewpoint of the future of the democracy in the Republic.

Samir Husni: Thank you.

“Reader’s Digest is the greatest example of successful print because part of it is the physical nature of the product; the fact that it’s small and pocket-sized and you can take it anywhere.” Bonnie Kintzer…

“I think the beauty of print is that the brand is so revered. Our print brands have been around for a long time, they really mean something as opposed to launching a new brand that doesn’t have a history. So I think the beauty of print is having such a great history. When you have something like Reader’s Digest or Taste of Home, it already has this incredible stamp of approval.” Bonnie Kintzer…

Bonnie Kintzer has been president and CEO of Trusted Media Brands for around10 years and isn’t afraid to tout print as the individualized physical experience it is. Oh she’s a firm believer in digital, video and AI, but she doesn’t sweep print under a dilapidated, hole-worn rug either. I spoke with Bonnie recently and we talked about many things. From being considered a media company rather than a magazine company to where she sees the magazine media business heading in the future, the conversation was vast and very informative.

As you read this interview keep in mind that Bonnie oversees titles like Reader’s Digest, Taste of Home, and Family Handyman. Stalwart, trustworthy magazines that have always contributed bountifully to each of their subject matters and genres. And along with the great print products, there are videos, digital entities and even a streaming service title. With a plethora of content such as that, her plate is always full, but you can be sure she still has lots of fun doing what she does. And I know because I asked her…

And now the Mr. Magazine™ exclusive interview with Bonnie Kintzer, president & CEO, Trusted Media Brands. Please enjoy…

But first the soundbites:

On how she saw 2023: I think it was, obviously, a very challenging year. On the print side, we did quite well. We saw great renewals and really terrific response rates to our digital initiatives on the magazine, so I actually think from a print perspective we were very happy. On the digital side we saw a lot of challenges with Google and I think we have responded in kind to that. We had a fantastic December and I think it was a year of transition as in some ways they all are.

On her forecast for 2024: I think our purposefulness will continue to be strong. I think we’re very focused on our four brands; we have four very strong magazines. I think the newsstand will continue to be a challenge, but our direct marketing, whether it’s the mail or digital, continues to do really well. So we feel really good about it.

On why she thinks her print brand is still doing good in this digital age: Because our brands are really beloved, and we focus on four not a larger amount like we used to. I do think too that we were very thoughtful in focusing on the titles that had the longevity, such as Reader’s Digest.

On whether the experience is different when you buy a magazine from the newsstand or get it in the mail as opposed to the web: Oh yes, and it always will be. Reader’s Digest is the greatest example of successful print because part of it is the physical nature of the product; the fact that it’s small and pocket-sized and you can take it anywhere.

On closing the Canadian edition of Reader’s Digest: As you know, Canada is a very small market and it’s a very difficult market from a postal perspective. And I think the team did a fantastic job, but we’re about focus. I can’t emphasize that enough. And I think focus is what helps us to continue to be successful. You have to focus on where the opportunity is and I think that we do that in everything we do.

On whether they’re involved in the bookazine business: We have some bookazines, but it’s really not where we focus. I would say that the newsstand channel is quite broken and we really try to focus on areas where we can have impact. And we have not been able to have great impact on the newsstand. Again, not our focus.

On whether Reader’s Digest is still their number one brand: Yes, in print. And we have other brands outside of print with the FailArmy, The Pet Collective, and the WeatherSpy, People Are Awesome, and we also love our video brands. We launched At Home with Family Handyman, which is a streaming channel, obviously in partnership with Family Handyman. But of the four print brands, yes, Reader’s Digest is the biggest and doing incredibly well.

On where she sees the entire magazine media business heading: I think it will continue to get smaller and I think postal costs will continue to rise. And that will be a challenge. Our audiences can only take so much of a price increase, which means we will have less money to market and to deliver. So I expect it to be a smaller business. I always say that you want it to be a healthy and sustainable business and that’s absolutely the way we run it.

On being a media company instead of a magazine company: We don’t consider ourselves a magazine company at all. We consider ourselves a media company, with video first. We definitely lead with video. That is absolutely where consumers are going, where advertisers are going and as I said, we love our video brands. That’s what makes us and we take care of all parts of our business.

On the challenges she faces moving into 2024: Trying to understand what the situation with ad rates is going to be. I think the Google algorithm changes have affected all of us permanently. So those are big challenges, but I always say in this market you have to be excellent at pivoting and we’re excellent at pivoting. When we can do better with one partner than another we shift our resources. And the team is very adept and very agile.

On the most pleasant surprise of 2023: I’ll tell you a great print surprise. If you remember Reader’s Digest Condensed Books, which were renamed Select Editions, well we relaunched them as Fiction Favorites and it was the highest renewals that we have seen in years. And that was great. That was great to see that people are reading books in print and how great for a Reader’s Digest product that’s been alive for decades to see such a great burst of energy. That was a really wonderful surprise for us on the print side.

On the biggest disappointment of 2023: I think seeing continued postal increases has just been what I call, a criminal act. It was such a blow to all of us. So it’s a huge disappointment that we continue to get those increases and have no way to pass that on to our consumers.

On whether it’s easier to establish an audience for a print brand going to digital or a pure digital product: I think launching digital brands is very hard. It’s very hard to give them the weight that a print brand has. So that would probably be the difference.

On whether she thinks AI will be a friend or a foe to the publishing industry: I think AI is brilliant and fantastic and that it will make us much more efficient. It will allow us to analyze our data much more quickly to determine what data is meaningful and determine what our audiences are looking for. It can help us to pivot even more quickly.

On whether she feels curation in print is more important than ever: Yes, we named Jason Buhrmester to be the chief content officer of all of our print brands to make sure all of our print brands were really getting the necessary focus. We didn’t want them to be less important than their digital siblings. So we feel great about that and that we’re putting the right focus on print and that our leaders are doing the right print curation.

On anything she’d like to add: I’m an optimist by nature. I always tell my team it’s head in the clouds, feet on the ground. We have to understand what’s really happening in the marketplace and be disciplined and data-informed, which we are. And I think we make our decisions carefully and mindfully and we will adjust accordingly.

On what keeps her up at night: The economy. Really understanding what’s going to happen with interest rates. I think the amount of job loss within the industry has been exceptional. And I think that is a big one. Watching what happens with AI and what happens with Google search, both are very big forces and we don’t fully know the impact of them yet on our business.

And now the lightly edited Mr. Magazine™ interview with Bonnie Kintzer, president & CEO, Trusted Media Brands.

Samir Husni: How would you describe 2023?

Bonnie Kintzer: I think it was, obviously, a very challenging year. On the print side, we did quite well. We saw great renewals and really terrific response rates to our digital initiatives on the magazine, so I actually think from a print perspective we were very happy. On the digital side we saw a lot of challenges with Google and I think we have responded in kind to that. We had a fantastic December and I think it was a year of transition as in some ways they all are.

Samir Husni: What’s your forecast for 2024?

Bonnie Kintzer: I think our purposefulness will continue to be strong. I think we’re very focused on our four brands; we have four very strong magazines. I think the newsstand will continue to be a challenge, but our direct marketing, whether it’s the mail or digital, continues to do really well. So we feel really good about it.

Advertising in print is a little up and down, so obviously we’ve always been consumer-driven and we’ll continue to be consumer-driven, although we love our advertising partners. Digitally, I think it will be much more about the higher engagement of every visitor because I think search will continue to be challenged. But I think we have very deep relationships with our audience already and we’ll just focus on deepening them.

Of course, we also have a thriving social and streaming business. We ‘re very big in video now, that’s really the biggest part of our business and that continues to perform well for us.

Samir Husni: Why do you think in this digital age that your print is still doing well? What’s your secret?

Bonnie Kintzer: Because our brands are really beloved, and we focus on four not a larger amount like we used to. I do think too that we were very thoughtful in focusing on the titles that had the longevity, such as Reader’s Digest.

Our brands also live in many different platforms, so if you love Taste of Home, you can love it online and in print, and don’t forget we have a very big book business too unlike other publishers. And our book business and our magazine business work hand in hand.

Reader’s Digest continues to be a powerhouse and performing strongly. As you know, Reader’s Digest is the fabric of many people’s homes; it’s the magazine for everybody. Everyone is included in our title. I think everybody responds very well to that.

Samir Husni: Do you feel that when you buy the magazine on the newsstand or get it in the mail that it’s a different experience than going on the website?

Bonnie Kintzer: Oh yes, and it always will be. Reader’s Digest is the greatest example of successful print because part of it is the physical nature of the product; the fact that it’s small and pocket-sized and you can take it anywhere.

But it’s also the emotional arc. If you read that print magazine you know that you will be entertained, you’ll chuckle at the jokes, you’ll learn something; you might even get a little teary at a story. You can’t have that experience on the web. On the web you’re searching for something or you’re reading something, but you’re unlikely to have that emotional arc and I think that is truly the beauty of the Reader’s Digest magazine.

Samir Husni: When you see something in print do you feel that it’s more truthful than digital?

Bonnie Kintzer: Certainly, we don’t treat our writing that way. (Laughs) I couldn’t comment on other publishers, but we think our web is truthful as is our print.

Samir Husni: I read that you’re closing the Reader’s Digest in Canada. Are you going to substitute that edition with the United States edition?

Bonnie Kintzer: The Canadian audience will have that option. As you know, Canada is a very small market and it’s a very difficult market from a postal perspective. And I think the team did a fantastic job, but we’re about focus. I can’t emphasize that enough.

And I think focus is what helps us to continue to be successful. You have to focus on where the opportunity is and I think that we do that in everything we do. We’re quite disciplined and don’t let the emotion get in the way. We love our products, but we know that in the end we’re running a business and serving an audience. And that’s what we focus on.

Samir Husni: I call 2023 the year of the bookazine because there was more than 1,200 bookazines on the newsstands compared to only 71 new magazines launched, with only one monthly. I know you’re big on books, but are you involved in the bookazine business?  

Bonnie Kintzer: We have some bookazines, but it’s really not where we focus. I would say that the newsstand channel is quite broken and we really try to focus on areas where we can have impact. And we have not been able to have great impact on the newsstand. Again, not our focus.

Samir Husni: Is Reader’s Digest still the number one brand in your stable?

Bonnie Kintzer: Yes, in print. And we have other brands outside of print with the FailArmy, The Pet Collective, and the WeatherSpy, People Are Awesome, and we also love our video brands. We launched At Home with Family Handyman, which is a streaming channel, obviously in partnership with Family Handyman. But of the four print brands, yes, Reader’s Digest is the biggest and doing incredibly well.

Samir Husni: You’ve brought the company out of debt; are you still out of debt?

Bonnie Kintzer: No, we took on debt when we bought Jukin Media two and a half years ago.

Samir Husni: Where do you see the whole magazine media business heading?

Bonnie Kintzer: I think it will continue to get smaller and I think postal costs will continue to rise. And that will be a challenge. Our audiences can only take so much of a price increase, which means we will have less money to market and to deliver. So I expect it to be a smaller business. I always say that you want it to be a healthy and sustainable business and that’s absolutely the way we run it.

Samir Husni: And you’ve already diversified; I remember you told me last year that you were no longer a magazine company, but a media company.

Bonnie Kintzer: Absolutely. We don’t consider ourselves a magazine company at all. We consider ourselves a media company, with video first. We definitely lead with video. That is absolutely where consumers are going, where advertisers are going and as I said, we love our video brands. That’s what makes us and we take care of all parts of our business.

Samir Husni: What are the challenges that face you as you move into 2024?

Bonnie Kintzer: Trying to understand what the situation with ad rates is going to be. I think the Google algorithm changes have affected all of us permanently. So those are big challenges, but I always say in this market you have to be excellent at pivoting and we’re excellent at pivoting. When we can do better with one partner than another we shift our resources. And the team is very adept and very agile.

Samir Husni: What was the most pleasant surprise of 2023?

Bonnie Kintzer: I’ll tell you a great print surprise. If you remember Reader’s Digest Condensed Books, which were renamed Select Editions, well we relaunched them as Fiction Favorites and it was the highest renewals that we have seen in years. And that was great. That was great to see that people are reading books in print and how great for a Reader’s Digest product that’s been alive for decades to see such a great burst of energy. That was a really wonderful surprise for us on the print side.

The launching of At Home with Family Handyman on Samsung has been exceptional. We love that we can take this 70-year-old print brand and make it a part of the streaming universe. It’s very exciting.

Samir Husni: And what was the biggest disappointment of 2023?

Bonnie Kintzer: I think seeing continued postal increases has just been what I call, a criminal act. It was such a blow to all of us. So it’s a huge disappointment that we continue to get those increases and have no way to pass that on to our consumers.

Samir Husni: Since you’ve dealt with print brands going to digital and pure digital, which do you think is easier to establish an audience for?

Bonnie Kintzer: I think the beauty of print is that the brand is so revered. Our print brands have been around for a long time, they really mean something as opposed to launching a new brand that doesn’t have a history. So I think the beauty of print is having such a great history. When you have something like Reader’s Digest or Taste of Home, it already has this incredible stamp of approval.

I think launching digital brands is very hard. It’s very hard to give them the weight that a print brand has. So that would probably be the difference.

Samir Husni: Do you feel that AI is going to be a friend or a foe to the publishing business?

Bonnie Kintzer: I think AI is brilliant and fantastic and that it will make us much more efficient. It will allow us to analyze our data much more quickly to determine what data is meaningful and determine what our audiences are looking for. It can help us to pivot even more quickly.

I think the AI impact on search is by far the most worrisome. But we will have to answer that by strengthening our relationships and making what’s strong even stronger. 

Samir Husni: Do you feel that the curation part of print is now more essential than ever?

Bonnie Kintzer: Yes, we named Jason Buhrmester to be the chief content officer of all of our print brands to make sure all of our print brands were really getting the necessary focus. We didn’t want them to be less important than their digital siblings. So we feel great about that and that we’re putting the right focus on print and that our leaders are doing the right print curation.

Creation is critical. You think about all of our titles; Taste of Home we’re curating the best set of recipes so that you can make fantastic meals. I hear from people all of the time about Family Handyman and what’s important to the home this month or new products; curation is critical and a magazine does that so well. I think we are doing a great job and focused in the right manner.

Samir Husni: Anything you’d like to add?

Bonnie Kintzer: I’m an optimist by nature. I always tell my team it’s head in the clouds, feet on the ground. We have to understand what’s really happening in the marketplace and be disciplined and data-informed, which we are. And I think we make our decisions carefully and mindfully and we will adjust accordingly.

Samir Husni: Are you still having fun?

Bonnie Kintzer: I am the longest consecutive CEO next to DeWitt Wallace of this company. I’m almost at 10 years and I’m still having fun. And I still love the team and the brands.

Samir Husni: My typical last question; what keeps you up at night?

Bonnie Kintzer: The economy. Really understanding what’s going to happen with interest rates. I think the amount of job loss within the industry has been exceptional. And I think that is a big one. Watching what happens with AI and what happens with Google search, both are very big forces and we don’t fully know the impact of them yet on our business.

Samir Husni: Thank you.

“One of the things that we’ve learned in 2023 is that many advertisers, while they love digital, they just love it, they’re realizing that it’s harder and harder to stand out from the crowd doing only digital. Some differentiating factors have been running in print magazines and running in traditional media, like television and radio.” Ryan Dohrn…

“What I’m trying to get at to share with you is that this whole idea that digital is the future – well, it can only be the future if we can control the saturation and the messaging. The problem is we’re overly saturated with digital and we’re having difficulty controlling the message. But the only way you can really control the message is through traditional media because we get to control our own voice inside the traditional media mechanism.”

Ryan Dohrn knows how to help publishers generate growth when it comes to all revenue channels: print, digital, sales, audience and events. He is the owner of Niche Media Events and the founder of Brain Swell Media, which is a media sales training firm. He knows every facet of the media world like the back of his hand and has trained over 30,000 ad sales reps in 7 countries.

Ryan sells media every day and has been a part of over half a BILLION dollars in media sales. He is a graduate of the Cornell Executive Leadership Program and his 30-year media sales and marketing career includes leadership roles at Disney/ABC TV, Morris Publishing, PennWell Publishing, and The NY Times Company. He is an Emmy Award winner, multiple business book author and has been featured in USA Today and on Forbes.com.  Ryan currently works monthly with over 50 media companies and their related sales and management teams.

I spoke with Ryan recently and we talked about his companies and the energy and synergy they produce. He has a confidence about him that emanates from his speech and makes a person feel instantly in control of whatever situation that’s facing them. It’s a winning quality and one that Mr. Magazine™ thoroughly enjoyed and took advantage of because you never turn down positivity. In any form.

Toward the end of the interview Ryan told me something that sounded very familiar: When you give somebody what they want they’re happy for a short period of time. When you give somebody what they need, you have a customer for a lifetime.

Sounded very familiar…

And now the inspiring interview with Ryan Dohrn, owner of Niche Media Events and founder of Brain Swell Media.

But first the soundbites:

On a recap of 2023, in terms of sales and advertising: One of the biggest things that we learned in 2023 was that those media organizations that were willing to control the narrative out there and were willing to adjust their sales methodologies not only survived in 2023, but they really thrived in 2023.

On whether he thinks artificial intelligence is helping or hurting: It depends upon the circumstance. In the sales business I don’t believe it is helping, because one of the things they’re trying to do is use artificial intelligence (AI) to replace something. Now if we would use AI to enhance things that we’re already doing instead of replacing that would be different. I don’t believe replacing is the right way to think about it at all, especially in media and in media sales. AI can actually help you and make things better.

On where he sees print growing in the future: In the B to B area. I would say in the business world, in B to B manufacturing, any type of business that includes a visceral experience, they’re almost always going to have a good experience with print media.

On what he thinks about the future of city and regional magazines: City and regional magazines are an important part of their communities, but they will need to fight to relevant to thrive. It’s going to be pretty tough because so much of that happens in real time in a city and regional environment, things are happening so quickly that it’s going to be a little bit of a challenge for the magazine component itself to make sure that it stays relevant because things happen so fast in the city and regional environment.

On whether he’s optimistic or pessimistic about 2024: In my opinion, 2024 is going to be a pretty tough year due to the degree of political and economic uncertainty across the country and around the world. I’m already advising my sales clients that you better do your selling in quarters 1, 2, and 3, because by the time we get to the end of third quarter and we’re staring an election in the face, if a salesperson thinks that they can wait until the 4th quarter to save their year, they’re going to be in trouble.

On whether he has more or less clients in 2024 versus 2023: I will have more clients because when things are not good in the world and people need more help with sales, then they call me. When there is a crisis going on in the world; we’ve got Israel at play, Ukraine, you name it, I get busier because people need a lot more help.

On what he was thinking when he bought the Niche Media Conference three years before: People did think I was crazy. They thought I was crazy to buy this business during the pandemic. My mission, and I really feel like it’s one of the reasons God put me on this earth, was really to help people help themselves and help their families. And the Niche Media Conference is a part of my core mission of helping publishers and salespeople make some great money with their business and make some great decisions.

On where his business health comes from: The reason that we’re seeing some real growth is the high level of relevance of all the different topics and information that we’re presenting. So because every day I am knee deep in the media business, I really do know what it is publishers want and salespeople need. I feel like the reason some of the other groups and events have not survived is because they weren’t exceedingly relevant to the immediate needs of these publishers.

On having the Niche Media Awards: I think it’s a good idea and they did in the past. They were called the Nichee Awards and they went away during COVID because it was hard to gather all of that together. But I think we should probably resurrect them because we do need to make sure that we’re awarding people for their excellence in the magazine business. I do believe that we’ve got quite a few more years of this conference ahead.

On the marketing that he’s doing: Yes, the marketing component piece, which you know is core to my heart, sales and marketing, the marketing is an important piece of the puzzle. How do you market to a publisher and not be so overwhelming that it’s kind of too much in their face? But it’s important to be out there.

On what he would hope to tell someone about 2024 a year from now: It was just a mess. I think I’m going to say 2024 was a mess. And I’m hoping from the depths of my heart and the core of my soul, I’m hoping that won’t be the case. But unfortunately as I look across the landscape of the world, I’ve had the opportunity to speak at publishing conferences abroad, and unfortunately I think we’re going to be standing on New Year’s Eve waiting on 2025 and we’re going to say wow! 2024 was a real mess.

On anything he’d like to add: The biggest change I’ve seen is people doing consultative selling, where they’re guiding people toward what they need to do with us as media companies as opposed to delivering on what they want. When you give somebody what they want they’re happy for a short period of time. When you give somebody what they need, you have a customer for a lifetime.

On what keeps him up at night: As I’m getting closer to the other side of my career, I have to fight every day to be relevant. And one of the things I probably think about the most and what keeps me up at night is what will I do this week to be exceedingly relevant to my clients, to other publishers, to my wife, to my children. What can I do to be relevant, because I feel like the moment I lose relevancy will be the moment I should step aside and let someone else be the voice of revenue for the media business. 

And now the lightly edited Mr. Magazine™ interview with Ryan Dohrn, owner of Niche Media Events and founder of Brain Swell Media.

Samir Husni: Can you recap 2023 in terms of sales and advertising? What’s your words of wisdom?

Ryan Dohrn: One of the biggest things that we learned in 2023 was that those media organizations that were willing to control the narrative out there and were willing to adjust their sales methodologies not only survived in 2023, but they really thrived in 2023.

What I’m noticing though is that you have to make changes; you have to be willing to make changes. What’s interesting is, because so many people and advertisers have gone to the digital side of the marketing spectrum, if you will, what’s interesting is the saturation level is really high.

So, one of the things that we’ve learned in 2023 is that many advertisers, while they love digital, they just love it, they’re realizing that it’s harder and harder to stand out from the crowd doing only digital. Some differentiating factors have been running in print magazines and running in traditional media, like television and radio.

I guess what I’m trying to get at to share with you is that this whole idea that digital is the future – well, it can only be the future if we can control the saturation and the messaging. The problem is we’re overly saturated with digital and we’re having difficulty controlling the message. But the only way you can really control the message is through traditional media because we get to control our own voice inside the traditional media mechanism.

Samir Husni: Do you think artificial intelligence is helping or hurting?

Ryan Dohrn: It depends upon the circumstance. In the sales business I don’t believe it is helping, because one of the things they’re trying to do is use artificial intelligence (AI) to replace something. Now if we would use AI to enhance things that we’re already doing instead of replacing that would be different. I don’t believe replacing is the right way to think about it at all, especially in media and in media sales. AI can actually help you and make things better.

So if you look at AI as it can help me be better in sales; it can help me potentially be a better writer, rather than let’s use AI to replace salespeople or to replace writers. That in my opinion is the wrong way to look at it.

Samir Husni: I call 2023 the year of the bookazine because we only had 71 new magazines published, with only one monthly. Where do you see print growing in the future? Or do you?

Ryan Dohrn:. Yes, in the B to B area. I would say in the business world, in B to B manufacturing, any type of business that includes a visceral experience, they’re almost always going to have a good experience with print media.

An example might be, if you look at a magazine like Fender Bender magazine, it’s designed to be read by people who are visceral with their hands, people that repair cars, people that repair dents in cars; the collision industry. I find that with folks who are in visceral experience businesses, magazines tend to be a visceral experience and it seems to work really well.

On the consumer side of things, I get a little more concerned, because it’s difficult for us to create content in a magazine that no one is going to find anyplace else because of the internet. So, I think the consumer side of the business is going to struggle a little bit more than the B to B side where I see magazine media continue to be real strong.

Samir Husni: What about the city and regional magazines?

Ryan Dohrn: City and regional magazines are an important part of their communities, but they will need to fight to relevant to thrive.  I deeply enjoy my C&R clients and their passion for serving their communities. It’s going to be pretty tough because so much of that happens in real time in a city and regional environment, things are happening so quickly that it’s going to be a little bit of a challenge for the magazine component itself to make sure that it stays relevant because things happen so fast in the city and regional environment.

Samir Husni: Are you optimistic or pessimistic about 2024?

Ryan Dohrn: In my opinion, 2024 is going to be a pretty tough year due to the degree of political and economic uncertainty across the country and around the world. I’m already advising my sales clients that you better do your selling in quarters 1, 2, and 3, because by the time we get to the end of third quarter and we’re staring an election in the face, if a salesperson thinks that they can wait until the 4^th quarter to save their year, they’re going to be in trouble.

In my opinion, 2024 could potentially be one of the toughest advertising sales years that we’ve seen in quite some time. The reason is because business owners are reluctant to make decisions because they’re concerned about interest rates, the economy, things like that.

We, as media sales professionals, have to control the narrative. If we don’t, as the political cycle season really sets in, and it’s already crazy, it’s going to get even worse. We have to control the narrative and say things like this. Throughout the course of history we have been through economic and political uncertainty before. What we know is that advertisers that consistently advertise through a crisis of any kind almost always come out on the other side of the crisis in better shape. We’ve seen this from the Great Depression all the way through the pandemic.

In the Great Depression we saw Kellogg’s Cereal overtake the giant, Post Cereal Company, and what did they do different, make better cereal? No. They just advertised more effectively. In the pandemic we saw Zoom rise to the top of all communication software for video conferencing as you and I meet here today. What did they do different, have a superior product? Not necessarily. They advertised steadily through the pandemic and now they’re one of the biggest leaders.

So, the secret of this is going to be controlling the narrative and getting people to understand no matter what happens in the world and politically, we have to keep advertising.

Samir Husni: Do you have more or less clients in 2024 than you did in 2023?

Ryan Dohrn: I will have more clients because when things are not good in the world and people need more help with sales, then they call me. When there is a crisis going on in the world; we’ve got Israel at play, Ukraine, you name it, I get busier because people need a lot more help.

What we’re seeing already in 2024, which is something great for you and your customers and listeners, etc., is a lot more marketing summits. I have a lot of clients inviting me and others in to have marketing summits with their advertisers so they can help control this narrative. They bring their advertisers together and say let us show you the latest in marketing trends and technology to help your business and becoming a lot more of a partner with these advertisers. That is a really great idea and I’m seeing a lot of that already in the works for 2024.

Samir Husni: Three years ago you bought Niche Media Conference; were you out of your mind? Conferences are disappearing, what were you thinking?

Ryan Dohrn: People did think I was crazy. They thought I was crazy to buy this business during the pandemic. My mission, and I really feel like it’s one of the reasons God put me on this earth, was really to help people help themselves and help their families. And the Niche Media Conference is a part of my core mission of helping publishers and salespeople make some great money with their business and make some great decisions.

So the reason I bought it is I didn’t want to see it go away. As someone who sells training services to media companies it was the best show of the year for me. I had already been a participant of the event for 18 years, so I decided to buy it and keep it going. Obviously, there’s a need because we’re seeing what used to be 200 people at an event, now we’re at 350 to 400 people, so there’s a big need out there for publishers to gather and to network together. And I think it’s just something important for publishers to be a part of.

Samir Husni: We used to have an abundance of groups like the MPA and Folio, communities such as that. Today we have a noticeable lack of these organizations, they’ve vanished. Where do you get your business health from?

Ryan Dohrn: The reason that we’re seeing some real growth is the high level of relevance of all the different topics and information that we’re presenting. So because every day I am knee deep in the media business, I really do know what it is publishers want and salespeople need. I feel like the reason some of the other groups and events have not survived is because they weren’t exceedingly relevant to the immediate needs of these publishers.

We have a panel of publishers and a panel of advertisers and we make sure that all of the topics are exceedingly relevant to the attendees that are there. The other thing is we work really hard to make it affordable and we also work really hard to only host the event in cities where people can get there in an affordable way. And I call it the Southwest rule: if you can fly Southwest direct, then that’s a good place to have an event. So we try to make it affordable for folks as well.

Relevancy and affordability are the real key components. And then also not overloading the show with sponsors. It can’t be a sales environment; it has to be a learning environment. And that’s an important piece as well.

Samir Husni: Have you considered starting the Niche Media Awards?

Ryan Dohrn: I think it’s a good idea and they did in the past. They were called the Nichee Awards and they went away during COVID because it was hard to gather all of that together. But I think we should probably resurrect them because we do need to make sure that we’re awarding people for their excellence in the magazine business. I do believe that we’ve got quite a few more years of this conference ahead.

Now we are doing a lot more digital-focused tracks and things like that. But are publisher’s track is solely focused on the print media business. And helping those groups not only survive, but thrive. And that really is a core mission of ours.

Samir Husni: It reminds me of a presentation I gave at the Niche Conference, ‘Survive Today To Thrive Tomorrow.’

Ryan Dohrn: Exactly. What’s interesting is you will learn more from your fellow publishers than you will from almost any other conference you attend. So one of the things that we do is a lot of roundtables, people sitting around and talking together. That’s where you really learn a lot.

The other thing that we did that’s different is that we invested heavily in very high end speakers. A lot of conferences you kind of take who you can get – well we actually spend money to bring in top-shelf, name brand speakers because I feel like if someone is going to spend $800 or a $1,000 to attend an event, they should walk away with some really tangible-type information. So we’ve kind of upped that a little bit as well. And then the fun factor; we always want to have a lot of fun at these events. We always try to do a lot of networking and have  a lot of fun.

Samir Husni: I noticed you’re doing a lot of marketing, besides LinkedIn.

Ryan Dohrn: Yes, the marketing component piece, which you know is core to my heart, sales and marketing, the marketing is an important piece of the puzzle. How do you market to a publisher and not be so overwhelming that it’s kind of too much in their face? But it’s important to be out there.

What’s interesting is, all the marketing tools that we use to get publishers to the Niche Media Conference are all the same tools that they should be using to get people to their events and to subscribe to their magazine. What I’ll try to do is stand in front of the group and say: one of the reasons you all are here is because of our marketing efforts, let me tell you how we got you here and how you can use those strategies to get people to your events and to subscribe to your magazine.

We also do something different that others don’t do, we focus on marketing and subscription development. And I believe the heart and soul of this business is subscription development. And not a lot of people talk about it. And so we have an entire track dedicated to marketing and subscription development. That subscription development is core, critical to success. When you look at big city and regional magazines like Our State North Carolina, one of the most profitable in the city and regional space, they are a subscription-based publication. And if they can do it, and they do it well, why can’t others? It’s a great model that they’ve put in place.

Samir Husni: And almost all the CEO’s that I’ve interviewed in the last few weeks are seeing a return to direct marketing and subscription, and they’re seeing a good response to that direct marketing too.

Ryan Dohrn: Yes, I agree. And people tend to subscribe. We are living in a world of subscribers; we subscribe to everything. So why would our media be any different? As you’ve preached for years, if you have the right content people will pay for it. But if you have content that anybody has, most people won’t. And I agree with that and applaud your efforts over the years for trying to make people understand that you can have a very robust subscription business if you have content that people will actually pay for.

Samir Husni: If you and I are talking a year from now, what would you hope to tell me you had accomplished in 2024?

Ryan Dohrn: It was just a mess. I think I’m going to say 2024 was a mess. And I’m hoping from the depths of my heart and the core of my soul, I’m hoping that won’t be the case. But unfortunately as I look across the landscape of the world, I’ve had the opportunity to speak at publishing conferences abroad, and unfortunately I think we’re going to be standing on New Year’s Eve waiting on 2025 and we’re going to say wow! 2024 was a real mess.

But my hope and my prayer going forward is that we will figure out some way to talk together and unite together and work together, because I do think we all have common needs, goals, and desires. If we can focus on those I think that we can have a better society. That and follow the 10 Commandments. That would be good too.

Samir Husni: Is there anything you’d like to add?

Ryan Dohrn: The one thing that has changed dramatically in the ad sales business is that we’ve really changed the way that we sell. From going out and saying Mr. or Ms. Advertiser, what do you want from us and finding out that delivering back is what they want.

The biggest change I’ve seen is people doing consultative selling, where they’re guiding people toward what they need to do with us as media companies as opposed to delivering on what they want. When you give somebody what they want they’re happy for a short period of time. When you give somebody what they need, you have a customer for a lifetime.

And that was the biggest change that I tried to push forward. And I saw it happen in 2023, from fulfilling people’s wants to guiding them toward their needs. And when you can make that subtle change, you’ll have a better and more robust media company and you’ll have advertiser that are happier longer.

Samir Husni: My typical last question; what keeps you up at night?

Ryan Dohrn: As I’m getting closer to the other side of my career, I have to fight every day to be relevant. And one of the things I probably think about the most and what keeps me up at night is what will I do this week to be exceedingly relevant to my clients, to other publishers, to my wife, to my children. What can I do to be relevant, because I feel like the moment I lose relevancy will be the moment I should step aside and let someone else be the voice of revenue for the media business.

Samir Husni: Thank you.

“Print is a foundation. Individually, everything we publish in print is profitable. And it’s part of our brand, position, platform, legitimacy, authenticity, all those things. You can get it, but it’s hard to get just in a digital form because there are so many people producing content all day every day.” Andy Clurman…

“We’re managing print as part of the portfolio and we’re doing it happily as long as it continues to contribute. I’ve seen a little bit of growth in print and subscription revenues in 2023, which was gratifying, particularly after the pandemic finally eased up.” Andy Clurman…

If you’re an enthusiast, AIM Media has a magazine for you. One of the world’s largest enthusiast media companies, Active Interest Media (aimmedia.com) produces leading consumer and trade events, websites, magazines, and films and TV shows that reach millions of readers, fans, and attendees in 85 countries. From Fine Homebuilding to Writer’s Digest, AIM has an eclectic mix of titles to entertain you and feed your enthusiasm.

Andy Clurman is president and CEO of the company and firmly behind AIM’s M&A (Merger & Acquisition) strategies, such as the acquisition of The Taunton Press in 2023, a respected consumer media and book business, based in Newtown, Connecticut. I spoke with Andy recently and we talked about the acquisition and how it would expand AIM’s ever-growing enthusiast audience even more. It was an insightful discussion that offered knowledge and interesting concepts. And one that I hope you enjoy.

So now, here’s the Mr. Magazine™ interview with Andy Clurman, president & CEO, Active Interest Media (AIM) Please enjoy…

But first the soundbites:

On how he would evaluate 2023: I say that 2024 is a lot more promising than 2023 was. We didn’t set out a path to make a big acquisition in 2023, but as we got into the year and we saw the results of the increases in cost and the challenges of growing without investing, we thought ok, we need to change the model here. How do you do that?

On the revenue mix of AIM’s digital and print collectible events: We are now about 52% in terms of print revenue and of that it’s about 60/40 consumer revenue to advertising revenue. The remainder is made up of digital revenue from digital products, digital memberships, online education and learning, digital events, which we do a lot of digital events, and then live events. So we still have a good portfolio of in-person events and we’re growing more of those.

On his favorite brand among AIM’s many: It depends on who’s making the most money at any given moment. It’s just like I have three kids and I might tell any one of them, you’re my favorite today. (Laughs) Some are more evolved than others. Where our woodworking business has got 10 different dimensions to it and it’s really incredible to see what’s been built there over the years, some are more one dimensional. It’s fun to have them learn from each other.

On whether they will merge any of the magazines they just acquired, such as Fine Woodworking and Popular Woodworking: We kept them separate and they have thrived in that way. Likewise, with Horticulture and Fine Gardening which are great brands and have big audiences, our belief is that if it is a consumer driven business and consumers have made a choice to be part of a brand and a community, forcing them to join another doesn’t always work out the way you thought it might.

On whether he feels there’s still a future for print: I think there’s a future for print. It’s one of the oldest forms of communication.  And we know from neurological studies that it has a different impact on people when it comes to consuming information. The tactile experience. The ability to curate and surprise people with things they weren’t expecting. And I think the fundamental demand for print is still there; the channels to get it into people’s hands is very challenged, especially from the newsstand standpoint.

On whether he thinks you can trust print more than digital: It’s funny at how print is held at such a different standard than digital, which is a good thing. You can do outrageous things on digital networks and social media networks and suffer no consequences, where if you betray your audience in print, do that at your peril.

On where Writer’s Digest fits in with all of the other titles: There are things that I personally have an affinity for, that goes with my own hobbies and interests. But as a business, where there’s a strong community of people with enough critical mass and high information needs you can build a great business around them;  Writer’s Digest has been doing this for over 100 years.

On what he would hope to tell someone that he had accomplished a year from now: With the combined energy and experience of the AIM and Taunton brands and people, I’d love to be looking back this time next year and say we have achieved some growth in our major lines of business. We don’t need to grow 20% but if we can stay ahead of inflation and  continue to evolve our brands and business we will secure the future. I’ll consider that a good day’s work.

On what keeps him up at night: We have a lot of people relying on us in our company for their welfare and prosperity.  As I tell them that even though we’re not a public company, I consider them shareholders because they’re investing their time, money and career. For us, it’s making sure that we can provide them with a good outcome and a fair return on their investment

And now the lightly edited Mr. Magazine™ interview with Andy Clurman, president & CEO, Active Interest Media.

Samir Husni: Congratulations on acquiring The Taunton Press.

Andy Clurman: Thank you.

Samir Husni: It’s one of the few merger/acquisitions of 2023 that took place in the industry. That being said, how would you evaluate 2023?

Andy Clurman: It was a tough year in terms of managing cost and inflation, all while trying to grow simultaneously. And also trying to unlock some investment dollars while you’re attempting to satisfy everyone’s demands for price increases and more money, which was part of our impetus for the acquisition after spinning off AIM.

I don’t know if I’ve talked to you since this happened, but AIM is now a private company. And that’s great; it’s still a pretty good size. But it occurred to me, in the industry, with the companies that are our relative size, there are a lot of platforms and portfolios that used to be a lot healthier. But now because costs have risen, revenue hasn’t grown and I think they are finding themselves in what I call the ‘subscale zone.’ And that means that you’re big enough that you need to have all of the services and people and platforms to manage a company that’s $25 to $50 million, but with the cost pressures you’re not able to free up enough money to invest in your growth. And if you’re not investing in your growth, then you’re probably standing still.

And standing still is really going backward because everyone wants a raise. The landlord wants a raise; the paper company wants a raise; their staff wants a raise. Somebody told me once that if you’re not growing your revenue, you’re going out of business slowly and that’s absolutely true.

Despite having phenomenal products and people and a lot of innovation, being stuck in that subscale box puts a lot of a pressure on a company. So this acquisition is a great antidote to that. It gets us out of that zone and puts us in a higher revenue tax bracket in terms of the size of the company. It gave us a ton of new, super-talented people that are a lot like our A people coming over from Taunton and they’re super innovative. With limited resources they’re laying a lot of good foundations to grow the business, which we can now do together.

So I say that 2024 is a lot more promising than 2023 was. We didn’t set out a path to make a big acquisition in 2023, but as we got into the year and we saw the results of the increases in cost and the challenges of growing without investing, we thought ok, we need to change the model here. How do you do that? It’s certainly always risky and fraught with lots of other unintended consequences, but we’ve been M&A (Merger & Acquisition)  driven for 20 years and had a lot of great success doing that. The only difference is this one is on my back and my partner’s completely to make it work. We don’t have any outside investors or banks, so we’re operating without a net.  

Samir Husni: But on one hand, I’m sure it’s a relief. The only people you have to congratulate or blame would be you or your partner.

Andy Clurman: It’s a really fun position to be in. And then on the other hand, I’m still very involved with our equine business, which is backed by some great private equity partners and we’ve been going great guns there with the Equine Network. It’s somewhat of a parallel universe, but a little different business model.

Samir Husni: You’re strong on events, digital and print, what’s the end collectibles? And what’s the revenue mix?

Andy Clurman: We are now about 52% in terms of print revenue and of that it’s about 60/40 consumer revenue to advertising revenue. The remainder is made up of digital revenue from digital products, digital memberships, online education and learning, digital events, which we do a lot of digital events, and then live events. So we still have a good portfolio of in-person events and we’re growing more of those.

We’re doing curated gardening tours internationally and domestically, which have been booming. We’re relaunching a woodworking in-person event series. We still have in-person writing events for novelists and screenwriters. We still have some boutique home shows and traditional building conferences.

So I look at the business as we have 36 revenue lines in our P&L’s, not all in equal size and magnitude, and they certainly benefit from each other, but they don’t operate in box step. We look at where the things are that we can grow and put time and investment into those.

Samir Husni: I know it’s not a fair question to ask you, but do you have a crown jewel? Do you have a favorite child among your many?

Andy Clurman: It depends on who’s making the most money at any given moment. It’s just like I have three kids and I might tell any one of them, you’re my favorite today. (Laughs) Some are more evolved than others. Where our woodworking business has got 10 different dimensions to it and it’s really credible to see what’s been built there over the years, some are more one dimensional. It’s fun to have them learn from each other.

But there’s not a template boiler plate for every brand in every market. So what works in wood working wouldn’t necessarily work in super yachts. The strength of the company is in the diversity of the markets, the brands, and the people we have. Unfortunately, I spend most of my time on fixing problems or pushing the envelope on new frontiers, so I probably don’t spend enough time appreciating when the brands are going great and our crown jewels.

Samir Husni: Are you going to merge any of the magazines you just acquired, such as Fine Woodworking and Popular Woodworking? Are they going to be combined or continue as separate entities?

Andy Clurman: It’s interesting, historically I’ve worked for companies like Times Mirror when they owned Ski Magazine and Field & Stream, then bought Skiing Magazine and Outdoor Life. So I’ve worked in companies where you had multiple brands within one category. When those brands were ad businesses and ad driven, then they easily cannibalized each other with the advertisers.

When they’re consumer driven…for example, when we bought Popular Woodworking and Horticulture out of the F+W bankruptcy and we already had Woodsmith and Garden Gate, we thought that we were just going to combine them. But as we got into it and did some research, we found out they both had unique consumer franchises. And you know well, in the magazine world one plus one equals one typically in magazines and magazine brand audiences.

So we kept them separate and they have thrived in that way. Likewise, with Fine Woodworking and Fine Gardening which are great brands and have big audiences, our belief is that if it is a consumer driven business and consumers have made a choice to be part of a brand and a community, forcing them to join another doesn’t always work out the way you thought it might.

We’re going to look at lots of ways to cross-promote, cross-sell, up-sell, and take products that exist in one but not the other. But for now, unless proven otherwise, we think we’re going to keep the brands and manage them independently.

Samir Husni: Are they going to stay in Connecticut or are you moving everything to Colorado?

Andy Clurman: We have both in Colorado and Connecticut. Our official headquarters is Des Moines, Iowa now. After we sold our Healthy Living and Outdoor group to Outside, we don’t really have a critical mass of people in Colorado anymore. Taunton has also been working remotely since the pandemic, so they only had a few people going onto their campus in Newtown. And we’ve been wildly successful working remotely.

We still have offices in Des Moines and we have our woodshop and TV studio there and office space. We’re going to keep the woodshop and office space in Newtown, Connecticut where Taunton is, for the folks who work out of there. A lot of them are producing video, producing television, and doing the hands-on woodworking projects. So we’ve leased that building going forward.

Samir Husni: I call 2023 the year of the bookazines. We’ve seen more than 1,000 SIPs come to the marketplace. A360 put 525 on the shelves.

Andy Clurman: You can thank my friend Doug Olson for that.

Samir Husni: (Laughs) Do you think there’s still a future for print or do you feel it’s changing?

Andy Clurman: I think there’s a future for print. It’s one of the oldest forms of communication.  And we know from neurological studies that it has a different impact on people when it comes to consuming information. The tactile experience. The ability to curate and surprise people with things they weren’t expecting. And I think the fundamental demand for print is still there; the channels to get it into people’s hands is very challenged, especially from the newsstand standpoint.

As much as we still produce a lot of newsstand products and we’re on the newsstand and we produce a lot of print subscription products, we’re trying to evolve the business where we’re not going to be beholden to Google and Facebook, newsstand distribution and the retail system, which I think right now would be algorithmic changes.

I’m hearing from friends of mine who run digital only companies that are seeing these massive audience drops, they’re telling me whatever Google is up to now. And that is consuming their every waking thought. I don’t want to be beholden to one big advertiser or one big platform.

Print is a foundation. Individually, everything we publish in print is profitable. And it’s part of our brand, position, platform, legitimacy, authenticity, all those things. You can get it, but it’s hard to get just in a digital form because there are so many people producing content all day every day.

Samir Husni: Let’s talk about the trust factor; can you trust print more than digital? Because once you print something you can’t change it.

Andy Clurman: Is that a rhetorical question? It’s funny at how print is held at such a different standard than digital, which is a good thing. You can do outrageous things on digital networks and social media networks and suffer no consequences, where if you betray your audience in print, do that at your peril.

I think the things that have a very strong affinity with the audience make people take ownership of a magazine. They say things like don’t do that to my magazine. I know that our editors feel the same way. The people at Fine Homebuilding or Woodsmith or Power & Motoryacht, the editors and designers all feel that responsibility from the audience.

I’m not sentimental about print, however. My first magazine job was at Skiing Magazine in New York City and I’m the one who discontinued it in print a bunch of years ago when the business didn’t work anymore.

So we’re managing print as part of the portfolio and we’re doing it happily as long as it continues to contribute. I’ve seen a little bit of growth in print and subscription revenues in 2023, which was gratifying, particularly after the pandemic finally eased up.

It’s not a line of business that private equity is going to get excited about or Wall Street gets excited about, but it’s a great business as an owner-operated private company where you’re not subject to the expectations and pressures of those kind of investors.

Samir Husni: You have all of these specialized titles with the marine brand, the hallmark, homebuilding brand and others. And you also have Writer’s Digest. Where does it fit in this group of titles that you have?

Andy Clurman: There are things that I personally have an affinity for, that goes with my own hobbies and interests. But as a business, where there’s a great, strong community of people, like my new people, with enough critical mass and information, with community wants and needs, there’s your reason. And not everything works for everyone, but we have the abilities in the people in the company to manage events, to produce online education, to produce all kinds of digital products.

So you can substitute woodworking for writing or car collecting for gardening, but our mentality and strategies are roughly the same across the whole waterfront.

Samir Husni: And it’s your oldest title at over 100-years-old?

Andy Clurman: Writer’s Digest and Horticulture are both well over 100-years-old.

Samir Husni: I wonder if we’ll ever celebrate 100 years with any digital entity?

Andy Clurman: (Laughs) Well, we always hear that Meet The Press is the longest running television show on television. I’m on the board of Yankee Publishing. And compared to Meet The Press, Yankee is the longest, continuously published periodical in America dating back, I think, 275 years. And they still sell over a million copies a year.

Samir Husni: So if you and I were talking a year from now, what would you hope to tell me you had accomplished in 2024?

Andy Clurman: We are expecting, projecting, counting on reigniting some growth in our business after spending last year fighting inflation and figuring out a transformative way to get out of that box I was describing.

Having done that, I hope to follow through with all the plans we have around that. And one of those is, we are in the late stages of building out a much more sophisticated consumer data platform and automated marketing stack, which we built a big organization around to manage that. Then we can launch a whole bunch of even nichier products because even within the audience of writers there’s people who are science fiction writers, screen writers, murder-mystery writers and more..

So we think we can identify new groups of people or smaller groups of people and have an ability to serve more tailored content and services and products of interest to them. In Power & Motoryacht you’ve got people who are center console, offshore fishing people, you’ve got people who are Great Lakes bass boat fishing people.

So even though were already very niche, we still have a pretty big tent within these markets. So being able to serve them efficiently and at a relative scale, and also do a much better job of marketing to people rather than just everybody being the same. And  to have a system set up where you’re speaking more specifically to people’s interests and serving them with a whole array of products around that.

We think that’s a growth path for us. So with the combined energy, people and experience, I’d love to be looking back this time next year and say we have all of the major lines of business growing at some rate. We don’t need to grow 20% if we can stay ahead of inflation instead of going out of business slowly. Instead, securing the future. Then I’ll consider that a good day’s work.

Samir Husni: My typical last question; what keeps you up at night?

Andy Clurman: We have a lot of people relying on us in our company for their welfare and prosperity, even though I tell them that I consider them shareholders because they’re investing their time, money and career. For us, it’s making sure that we can provide them with a good outcome. I don’t think that we’re living on the ragged edge, but we’re risk takers and we’re doing things that are hopefully for all of our benefit.

I feel like the promises have been made and the expectations have been set so that everybody is gratified to be part of this. And is proud of what they’re doing.

Samir Husni: Thank you.